solar/ un authorized workers

[dennis chamlke]

don't know how you feel but I have 40 years as electrician / contracting and get miffed when non-electrical persons are installing eqiupment such as solar , wind, bio -generators and even underground services with no electricians in site.
When i ask our inspection people they are quick with " They must have a n electrician on staff" this is a cop out because someone had to take out the permits. OR ARE THEY?
Even amitures and home owners with NO expierience can wire complete houses some with no permits whatsoever.
i could go on but this is my concern for the last 20 years .

DEN C

 

[iwire]

Welcome to the forum Dennis.

Is there a question in there or just a rant?

What are the rules in your area?

 

[Dnkldorf]

don't know how you feel but I have 40 years as electrician / contracting and get miffed when non-electrical persons are installing eqiupment such as solar , wind, bio -generators and even underground services with no electricians in site.


DEN C

Most of this requires mechanical tradesman as the brunt of the work.

It seems electricians are only needed to make final connections.....no?

 

[iwire]

The rules are difftent in each area, here are the rules for MA.

PART I. ADMINISTRATION OF THE GOVERNMENT ​

TITLE XX. PUBLIC SAFETY AND GOOD ORDER ​

CHAPTER 141. SUPERVISION OF ELECTRICIANS ​

Chapter 141: Section 1A. Licensure requirement; exceptions

Section 1A. No person, firm or corporation shall enter into, engage in, or work at the business or occupation of installing wires, conduits, apparatus, devices, fixtures, or other appliances for carrying or using electricity for light, heat, power, fire warning or security system purposes, unless such person, firm or corporation shall be licensed by the state examiners of electricians in accordance with this chapter and, with respect to security systems, unless such person, firm or corporation shall also be licensed by the commissioner of public safety in accordance with the provisions of sections fifty-seven to sixty-one, inclusive, of chapter one hundred and forty-seven.

This chapter shall not apply to: a person not engaged in the business described in this section who employs or contracts for the services of a person, firm or corporation engaged in such business; or to an apprentice employed by a person, firm or corporation licensed in accordance with this chapter; or to an agent, employee or assistant of a person, firm or corporation licensed in accordance with this chapter who does not engage in or perform the actual work described in this section.

 

[Buck Parrish]

In Carolina it's illegall to engage or offer to engage in ANY electrical with out first being licensed.
However it's difficult to bust the myth, that it's okay to do small jobs.

Here is what the board says about solars. http://www.ncbeec.org/uploads/18ac11ae-b2dc-3519.pdf

 

[growler]

Ok there is something that most people don't even consider when complaining about unlicensed activity.

There is a proceedure for placing a complaint about any activity that you think is being done without a permit or by unlicensed persons. If this proceedure is followed then the local authorities are forced to take action. This action may be to determine that the job is not in violation of any rules or they may shut the job down but there is an action taken. Once the proper complaint is filed then they can not just ignore it because it goes on the books as a complaint ( it's in the records). Until someone files the proper complaint they are not forced to take any action of any kind.

Just telling an inspector about a suspected problem is not the proper proceedure in most cases. In this area it's a written and signed complaint that is needed. Just like the police, once they have a complaint they are allowed to investigate a situation without it being seen as harassment.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

In NYS, there are still many jurisdictions that permit dogs to pull wire, as long as the teeth in their mouth are still sound. Actually those jurisdictions do not have rules that strict, it is PITA that protects the dog and wants to see the teeth are sound when they are tasked with pulling wire.

That is of course, unless when pulling the wire, they are also tasked with skinning the ends.

 

[BryanMD]

An observation I made very early in my first job with an actual EC (commercial) and that my JW and I fleshed out more fully is that "theory" constitutes MAYBE 1% of what "electrical" work really is on a day to day basis for most "electricians"; that wire termination and devices constitute maybe 5%; but that the far greatest % of the work is about "gear" and the mechanical aspects.

Things like which size and type of box to use under which circumstance and how to hang or support it... with most (95%?) of those decisions based more on design criteria (rather than code factors) and being settled by people the electrician will NEVER even see.

If the project is designed well by competent people and comes with clear and accurate drawings and schedules...
there will be very very little that gets done which really requires an electrician (however you define the term).

 

[Buck Parrish]

Ok there is something that most people don't even consider when complaining about unlicensed activity.

There is a proceedure for placing a complaint about any activity that you think is being done without a permit or by unlicensed persons. If this proceedure is followed then the local authorities are forced to take action. This action may be to determine that the job is not in violation of any rules or they may shut the job down but there is an action taken. Once the proper complaint is filed then they can not just ignore it because it goes on the books as a complaint ( it's in the records). Until someone files the proper complaint they are not forced to take any action of any kind.

Just telling an inspector about a suspected problem is not the proper proceedure in most cases. In this area it's a written and signed complaint that is needed. Just like the police, once they have a complaint they are allowed to investigate a situation without it being seen as harassment.

I made a written and signed complaint to the stat board. Follwed proper procedure. We went by that same location. Seen the same guy out their working at the same location with out the proper license. When the local AHJ was notified again. They said " Oh it's okay he got some one else to sign off on it".:roll:

 

[growler]

I made a written and signed complaint to the stat board. Follwed proper procedure. We went by that same location. Seen the same guy out their working at the same location with out the proper license. When the local AHJ was notified again. They said " Oh it's okay he got some one else to sign off on it".:roll:

So they got some idiot EC to permit the job and take responsibility for it. I hate to say it but that's all most local AHJs are interested in is covering their own behind. Now if anything goes wrong the EC that was dumb enough to permit the job will be held responsible.

Buck you are right and this is not really legal but do you have copies of any paperwork showing that the solar contractor is contracting this job and not the electrical contractor. If they did the paperwork right it would be hard to prove that either the solar contractor or the EC did anything wrong. To know they are wrong and prove they are wrong is a whole different matter when it comes to the law.

The person I dislike the most in all of this is the EC that allows someone to use his license for a few bucks so they can circumvent the law. If you ask the guy about it he will say he had to feed the family someway.

There is a lot of corruption in the world and these people can be hard to deal with if they are smart and know how to work the system.

 

[satcom]

So they got some idiot EC to permit the job and take responsibility for it. I hate to say it but that's all most local AHJs are interested in is covering their own behind. Now if anything goes wrong the EC that was dumb enough to permit the job will be held responsible.

Buck you are right and this is not really legal but do you have copies of any paperwork showing that the solar contractor is contracting this job and not the electrical contractor. If they did the paperwork right it would be hard to prove that either the solar contractor or the EC did anything wrong. To know they are wrong and prove they are wrong is a whole different matter when it comes to the law.

The person I dislike the most in all of this is the EC that allows someone to use his license for a few bucks so they can circumvent the law. If you ask the guy about it he will say he had to feed the family someway.

There is a lot of corruption in the world and these people can be hard to deal with if they are smart and know how to work the system.

That seems to be the standard operating practice for a lot of Solar guys, I get calls all the time , I need you to just sign a permit, how much do you charge, I told the last guy, I charge the same fee a brain transplant specialist charges.

 

[Buck Parrish]

So they got some idiot EC to permit the job and take responsibility for it. I hate to say it but that's all most local AHJs are interested in is covering their own behind. Now if anything goes wrong the EC that was dumb enough to permit the job will be held responsible.

Buck you are right and this is not really legal but do you have copies of any paperwork showing that the solar contractor is contracting this job and not the electrical contractor. If they did the paperwork right it would be hard to prove that either the solar contractor or the EC did anything wrong. To know they are wrong and prove they are wrong is a whole different matter when it comes to the law.

The person I dislike the most in all of this is the EC that allows someone to use his license for a few bucks so they can circumvent the law. If you ask the guy about it he will say he had to feed the family someway.

There is a lot of corruption in the world and these people can be hard to deal with if they are smart and know how to work the system.

In NC an electrical contractor must use only W-2 employees (bonified) No 10-99 employees. Temp employees must come from a job service which takes out taxes and insurance.
This is relatively new. Most people don't know about it yet.

 

[lefty]

no temps in oklahoma

no temps in oklahoma

temps are allowed in oklahoma only if the temp agency has an electrical contractor on staff. those temps can only work under an electrical contractor in the field, and they all have to have licenses apprentice, jmen, and 2 appr, to one jmen.

the problem has been the state and local enforcement of any of these here in oklahoma, the state is supposed to check that they have an Oklahoma employer identification number to prevent the 1099 busines on their employees, no enforcement of this and worker's comp reults in problems for legitament busineess to compete

 

[petersonra]

IMO, the best answer to this "problem" is the creation of a special license to install solar power systems.

Its not really just electrical. Most of the work really is not electrical in nature. The license should cover the sum total of the knowledge required to install these things.

 

[cowboyjwc]

IMO, the best answer to this "problem" is the creation of a special license to install solar power systems.

Its not really just electrical. Most of the work really is not electrical in nature. The license should cover the sum total of the knowledge required to install these things.

I agree, that's what we have here in CA. How many electricians are qualified to do sturctural calcs?

 

[growler]

I agree, that's what we have here in CA. How many electricians are qualified to do sturctural calcs?

I don't know how many electricians are qualified but it should be simple enough for them to learn. I have just been reading some guidlines for the permitting and inspection of PV systems and it appears that for residential systems where the roof system is under 30 years old and the PV sytem to include mounting hardware is under 6 lbs pr sq ft no engineering calculations are considered necessary.


The real problem appears to be that many jurisdictions don't really have a good permitting and inspection process. Most of the knowledge about these system and the permitting and inspection process is in Califorina.

I think that contractors ( electrical) should be required to get training and certification in the installion of a PV systems before they can even purchase this equipment and inspection departments should be required to be certified before they can inspect an installation.

We have to be errosion certified before we can dig a ditch so why not a seperate certification for PV systems. Not a seperate license but an addition to an existing license. If you are not certified then you wouldn't be able to permit for a PV system.

To create a seperate license would be a big deal in most states but an additional certification shouldn't add much cost at all.

I'm just thinking about overall cost to the state and budgets and all that stuff. That's the normal reason for taking no action.

 

[satcom]

I agree, that's what we have here in CA. How many electricians are qualified to do sturctural calcs?

In many states, the contractors that do this work need a PE sealed plan for the sturctual, the problem is lack of enforcement of exixting licening laws, many of these solar companies are nothing more then a sales operation with day labor installers, they pay the PE to seal the plans, and then search for a licensed electrician to seal the electrical, the PE is usually absent from the project, and so is the EC that rented his license, all illegal. what is needed is better enforcement not more laws or licenses.

 

[satcom]

I don't know how many electricians are qualified but it should be simple enough for them to learn. I have just been reading some guidlines for the permitting and inspection of PV systems and it appears that for residential systems where the roof system is under 30 years old and the PV sytem to include mounting hardware is under 6 lbs pr sq ft no engineering calculations are considered necessary.


The real problem appears to be that many jurisdictions don't really have a good permitting and inspection process. Most of the knowledge about these system and the permitting and inspection process is in Califorina.

I think that contractors ( electrical) should be required to get training and certification in the installion of a PV systems before they can even purchase this equipment and inspection departments should be required to be certified before they can inspect an installation.

We have to be errosion certified before we can dig a ditch so why not a seperate certification for PV systems. Not a seperate license but an addition to an existing license. If you are not certified then you wouldn't be able to permit for a PV system.

To create a seperate license would be a big deal in most states but an additional certification shouldn't add much cost at all.

I'm just thinking about overall cost to the state and budgets and all that stuff. That's the normal reason for taking no action.

It's not a problem when you understand the process, if your an EC selling solar, everything from residential to large commercial, you either have a PE on staff, or you may want to contract with the PE for the projects, If you are a licensed EC and intrested eniough to stay current with solar installation practices, then the solar business may be a great fit for your company.
The lager solar projects in my area, have been contracted and build by EC's. Many of our CEU's offer Solar trainning.

 

[cowboyjwc]

I don't know how many electricians are qualified but it should be simple enough for them to learn. I have just been reading some guidlines for the permitting and inspection of PV systems and it appears that for residential systems where the roof system is under 30 years old and the PV sytem to include mounting hardware is under 6 lbs pr sq ft no engineering calculations are considered necessary.


The real problem appears to be that many jurisdictions don't really have a good permitting and inspection process. Most of the knowledge about these system and the permitting and inspection process is in Califorina.

I think that contractors ( electrical) should be required to get training and certification in the installion of a PV systems before they can even purchase this equipment and inspection departments should be required to be certified before they can inspect an installation.

We have to be errosion certified before we can dig a ditch so why not a seperate certification for PV systems. Not a seperate license but an addition to an existing license. If you are not certified then you wouldn't be able to permit for a PV system.

To create a seperate license would be a big deal in most states but an additional certification shouldn't add much cost at all.

I'm just thinking about overall cost to the state and budgets and all that stuff. That's the normal reason for taking no action.

I brought this up in another thread that there is a solar license in CA and EC's are allowed to do solar in CA also. The point I was trying to make, is that just because they are installing solar, doesn't mean that they are not qualified to do electrical work, most of the installers here are EC's.

It's not all about weight when you install solar panels, you have wind lift that you have to consider. Not just as simple as screw down a couple of solar panels to the roof.

 

[growler]

what is needed is better enforcement not more laws or licenses.

I understand what you are saying but let me explain my reasoning a little better.

At the present any EC can permit for a solar contractor/sales operation. If there was a seperate certification for this type of work only those with an interest in doing the work themselves would bother to spend the money and take the necessary training to become certified. It would make it a lot harder to find some jerk to just permit a job for side money.

I understand that I'm not qualified to do solar installations because I have never bothered to train for such work. A lot of people are not as conscientious as I am. I know the difference between being allowed to do work and being qualified to do certain work but there are those that have a hard time understanding this.

I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for better enforcement, needed-yes, possible-yes, probable-not really.