Someone elses Ooop's now mine

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Security101

Security101

Senior Member
Location
Northern Indiana
Hey all,

I have inherited a "new to me" problem.

I have a new house ($2.5M) that's coming to completion/final that I have been called out to take over the Burglar/Fire (combo) alarm system install which is roughed in and panels are up.

I do this for a living and have not encountered this issue before.

Upon further inspection I found a "fire wire" (18/4 FPL) in the mix. When I approached the "old alarm company installer" he stated that yes he has pulled a fire wire from the panel to each detector in a row to the last detector. I said I didn't see any of "our smokes" on the job and he said "nope I used the new LV/HV smokes and did it with the electrician!"

I thought to myself, wait WHAT??

I hadn't seen a dual use smoke yet, and I immediately started thinking separation etc.

These are ESL 350CC smokes. They are not approved by GE for this use (says so in the instructions and confirmed with w quick call to GE tech). They are wired and installed (in tandem on the 125vac side) and connected together correctly to the Form-C (if you could actually do this) on the 12VDC side.

I know I shouldn't even touch this - but their up and customer will explode if there's one more issue out there. My common sense says don't - but even GE said some people have done it that way, its just not supported/approved, period! (thats almost enough for me - I will not add additional liability to my side if I can help it)

What do you guys think, have you ran into this before?

Wouldn't there need to be something separating the two?? Even if both wires are rated at 600v (the site electrician's boss said it was OK)?

Any ideas/thoughts would be appreciated (or even an idea on how to spring it on the old installer (friend) and or homeowner:wink: ), I cant just walk...

Jim
 
Have Paper work signed by the home owner that the smokes are not listed or recommended to be installed in this matter. You are sorry but you need them to know, that is how it was done. Have a solution ready for them in case they ask for an option.
 
doesn't matter how good of a friend the other guy is, doesn't even matter if its your boss, do not take the liability - make sure someone else is liable for the installation or walk. if the place burns down and you get sued, will your friend pay for it all ? I doubt it. It is not likely that you have enough interest in this job to get left holding the bag, so cya.
 
you need to call out the fire marshall to discuss what he expects on the job than you will be able to tell all parties involved what needs to be done per fire inspector it makes no sense for you to guess, the owner needs facts if this is in fact an issue. inspector will make you sound well informed. This also gives you an out if it is a serious problem.
 
WALK?!?!
ceb58 said:
OH, yes you can and should.
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In some states that would be breach or abandonment of contract and be disiplinary on your license. You could ask to get out.... Short of that.... In which case you take the approach of inform, document, recommend, document, document your documenting, and document that. Get AHJ involved, document, and document the documentation of everything...

but their up and customer will explode if there's one more issue out there.
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Who cares.... Sometimes thats just fun to watch IMO - you're not the one who got them into this situation, you should be the guy to get them out.... And if they blow the top, and sack you.... Document it very well....

But before all of that - are you sure these smokes can not be used? And for what reasons? Was the intent that they be connected to a supervised system? What happens in a power outage???

These ones right?
http://www.homecontrols.com/homecontrols/pdf/ESL320A_Smoke.pdf
Push all the LV to one side of the box, and all the line stuff to the other....
See: 725.55(D) and 760.55(D) I think....
 
In some states that would be breach or abandonment of contract and be disiplinary on your license. You could ask to get out.... Short of that.... In which case you take the approach of inform, document, recommend, document, document your documenting, and document that. Get AHJ involved, document, and document the documentation of everything...
Click to expand...

Maybe I over read the OP. Sounded like he was called in to look at and maybe fix someone else's problem. I did not see any thing about contracts to install system.

When I approached the "old alarm company installer" he stated that yes he has pulled a fire wire from the panel to each detector in a row to the last detector
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Why doesn't the "old alarm company installer" complete the job?
 
ceb58 said:
Maybe I over read the OP. Sounded like he was called in to look at and maybe fix someone else's problem. I did not see any thing about contracts to install system.


Why doesn't the "old alarm company installer" complete the job?
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Or maybe I over-read it???? But my point was - in someplaces that puts you not only in a bad light, but legal/$$$$ trouble.
 
Yes that is the correct one E57...

The other contractor is an AV guy who might have gotten in over his head - I should have been there from the beginning but wasn't asked till final (which is what I have done before but on much simpler type installs and I could fix or correct the minor issues if they arise).

I usually wire/program/setup the panel and take over with monitoring and service "at that point" - he pulls the wire, mounts the devices, leaves the rest to me.He used to work for me years ago and usually is right on with his part...

Thanks for the replies so far, I think you all mostly agree with me that it's not worth the liability exposure, and I should reveal the problem (to him at first of course) and not use this part of the install as is.

Apparently the electrician questioned it earlier than I and asked his boss who said it's OK. I do believe though, my first post may be wrong, as I think the fire wire is only 300v rated. That is what his boss was referring to as the only issue.

Jim
 
Security101 said:
Yes that is the correct one E57...

Jim
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The way you decribe it being 'used' - sounds OK to me...
However what I was trying to gain was 'for what purpose'????

As you say...
I usually wire/program/setup the panel and take over with monitoring
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I assume it is a supervised system, and this type of smoke would not be suitable by spec and power supply, but not by the way it was installed - just that it was installed.... You could check with the electrician, and see if this was a dedicated 'smoke circuit', and if so have it killed - and replace the devices with little harm or foul. (If the rest of the wiring is suitable???)

he pulls the wire, mounts the devices, leaves the rest to me.
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Anyway - it sounds as if you're getting into the "Parts and Smarts" biz - you might wanna get a little smarter about getting around earlier to spec your parts.... :rolleyes:
 
e57 said:
The way you decribe it being 'used' - sounds OK to me...
However what I was trying to gain was 'for what purpose'????
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Not sure what you mean...

e57 said:
As you say...
I assume it is a supervised system, and this type of smoke would not be suitable by spec and power supply, but not by the way it was installed - just that it was installed.... You could check with the electrician, and see if this was a dedicated 'smoke circuit', and if so have it killed - and replace the devices with little harm or foul. (If the rest of the wiring is suitable???)
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Yes it's supervised (or will be when I'm done). As it's wired and installed I believe I can get it to work correctly. I'm not familiar with the smoke as far as it's reliability (the ones we usually use are system smokes with a high quality track record). I could do that (kill the dedicated AC circuit and replace the smokes with our normal ones) - but then were back to who eats them etc...


e57 said:
Anyway - it sounds as if you're getting into the "Parts and Smarts" biz - you might wanna get a little smarter about getting around earlier to spec your parts.... :rolleyes:
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I'm unable to spec the system, if I'm not aware there is a system... :wink:
Like I said I usually "take-over" what he starts (I do this for 2-3 AV co's) and it works fine most of the time. Yea, I know their making all the money for the equipment and I eventually get stuck with their job, but they warranty for a year - I charge for service - contracts are clear!

Jim
 
Update:

Spoke with the AV guy, and looks like he's going to swap out the old ones with our system sensors...

Now if the AHJ says OK to a residential fire alarm system including only the smokes, and no tandem 120v smokes, we should be great!

I'll let you know:rolleyes:

I would still like to know if there's an issue with having NM and 18/4 FPL made up in the same single gang rough-in box:-?

Thanks for all your replies and discussion...

Jim
 
Security101 said:
These are ESL 350CC smokes.
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If that is a true statement then you are fine.


Security101 said:
They are wired and installed (in tandem on the 125vac side) and connected together correctly to the Form-C (if you could actually do this) on the 12VDC side.
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The ESL 350CC relays do not operate in tandem with the 120V side. They must detect smoke. So if the 18/4 is on the contacts(form-c). I assume setting off an alarm panel and maybe a phone dialer to call fire dept.. Sounds fine to me.
 
Security101 said:
Yea I'm sure electrically the would do as needed.

And Yes they are the 350CC...

Jim
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Yeah. I don't see any problems with the install or the detectors. 760.61(B)(3) allows the cable and 760.71(C) gives the minimum rating for that cable.
 
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