Someone finally figured out a way to circumvent electricians

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kwired said:
What is there to inspect? The device is listed and it just plugs in. No different than connecting a cord connected appliance to a receptacle that is already there.

Is it subject to being mis-applied? Yes. But so is a cord connected appliance that likely is not inspected either.
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I'm in agreement with you. All I'm inferring is that if I cut the tag on the meter and do any work, no matter how minute, I'm subject to an inspection. If POCO cuts the tag they're not subject to any inspection.
 
goldstar said:
I'm in agreement with you. All I'm inferring is that if I cut the tag on the meter and do any work, no matter how minute, I'm subject to an inspection. If POCO cuts the tag they're not subject to any inspection.
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I only have one question - Why?

You need an inspection if you are simply troubleshooting a problem and end up pulling meter to inspect condition of terminations in there? If you end up replacing something that may change things, but just to look?
 
goldstar said:
For some strange reason they're not subject to the same rules and regulations we are.:happyno:

If POCO's start installing these things you can be sure there will be no third party inspection.
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well, around here, the poco owns the meter socket. they are also not subject to the nec.
while you wouldn't want an unqualified person with access to power with pretty substantial
arc fault hazard, anyone qualified to remove and replace a meter, is qualified to plug this in.

this is not rocket science, and the folks most upset about it seem to be the people who are
doing transfer switches, obviously

friend of mine, who want's a genset, i sent him this link, nope, he wants a 20kw generac and a
smart switch with load shedding.

$4,500 or so gets both of them on amazon... he sent me a link.... so, you can't give these
industry killing things away.... ;-)

these things aren't cheap... the 50 amp is about the same price as a smart ats.

if they were $179 at home dipsnit, then you'd have a reason to get wound up.....

(that will happen next month... then you can get wound up again)
 
kwired said:
I only have one question - Why?

You need an inspection if you are simply troubleshooting a problem and end up pulling meter to inspect condition of terminations in there? If you end up replacing something that may change things, but just to look?
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NO, not just to troubleshoot. However, if I repair a service (i.e replace a weatherhead damaged by the storm) I have to file a permit with the town. They may not charge the customer but I still have to file. If I cut the tag on the meter and remove then meter for troubleshooting I'm obligated to call the POCO, explain what I did and have them re-seal the meter.
 
kwired said:
I only have one question - Why?

You need an inspection if you are simply troubleshooting a problem and end up pulling meter to inspect condition of terminations in there? If you end up replacing something that may change things, but just to look?
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Here is how it is in Michigan (by the letter of the law)

True story:

Last year I knew I had a bad neutral connection in my meter socket. POCO sends out linesman. They explain to me that if they pull the meter for me to look inside, and I find what I am looking for, in order to make the repair I have to go through the permit process. Well, that would mean me being without power for a day or two.

They also didn't think I knew what I was talking about until I showed them my license.

I also told them that the imbalance in my house was a hazard, not only to my equipment but a potential fire hazard as well (180 volts through a load meant for 120 can get awful hot) and that as soon as they left I was going to pull the meter and fix the neutral with or without their cooperation. I know the inspector here and I would rather ask for his forgiveness than let the problem go on any longer.

So, the linesmen give in a little and pull the meter. Lo and behold, the neutral connection was corroded and was not making a proper connection.

OK, so now I have to fix it hot, or talk them into cutting me. I told them I was 'old school' and had been working on hot stuff for twenty five years and most of that was 480.

One of the linesman looked up and decided that the connectors in my drop were bad and needed to be replaced. He told me I had about 10 minutes to do my thing as they replaced the 'bad' triplex connectors.

I fixed the bad neutral as they watched (they had never seen it done successfully before, usually the bolt or screw breaks off). They put everything back together and before they left I loaded up circuits and verified that my diagnosis and repair was correct.

If I hadn't been an electrician, and a determined one at that, I (rightfully so) would have had to gone through the permit / inspection process to work inside that can.
 
One thing that has crossed my mind about these devices, how does the POCO know they aren't hiding an illegal line side connection?

If I were the POCO, I would want to be able to see that there had been nothing tampered with in the meter socket and then covered up by the device. Perhaps they are made in a way that they can be seen through, which would be a very good idea.
 
K8MHZ said:
One thing that has crossed my mind about these devices, how does the POCO know they aren't hiding an illegal line side connection?

If I were the POCO, I would want to be able to see that there had been nothing tampered with in the meter socket and then covered up by the device. Perhaps they are made in a way that they can be seen through, which would be a very good idea.
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you take the fun out of everything.....
 
K8MHZ said:
One thing that has crossed my mind about these devices, how does the POCO know they aren't hiding an illegal line side connection?

If I were the POCO, I would want to be able to see that there had been nothing tampered with in the meter socket and then covered up by the device. Perhaps they are made in a way that they can be seen through, which would be a very good idea.
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There should be two seals. One to show evidence of entering the meter socket, and one to show evidence of removing the meter from the transfer device. Most POCO usually put tamper seals on any place where access to unmetered power is possible, to include junction boxes, wireways, etc on supply side of meter.
 
Just a funny story involving meter seals. My mother has owned some rental properties in the past, both residential and commercial. Sometimes tenants have gone broke, had the service turned off, been evicted or whatever.

I know of a few cases where when a new tenant wanted to sign a lease but needed immediate occupancy, where someone cut the seal, removed the insulating tabs, plugged the meter back in, and then called the POCO. And I know of a few cases where the new tenant was getting billed, and paying the bill, for over a year before the POCO got around to sealing the meter back up.
 
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Musings from the house plumber

Musings from the house plumber

Joethemechanic said:
Hmmmmmmm, I can see your concern. They would take all the less complicated "gravy work" and leave only specialty and commercial/ industrial. Probably put most of the small guys out of business.

I see them having human resource problems in such an undertaking though.

Your county is all the way north and kinda center isn't it? I haven't done much work there. Although I did a ton of work at PVSC in Newark.

The day is coming though. Pretty soon houses are going to be wired with panels that have locking connectors. It's going to be like using extension cords. Molded locking ends. Impossible to connect wrong. If it's a bit too long, you'll just wind up the excess and leave it in the wall. the little bit of wasted wire will save so much on labor because they will pay guys 10 bucks an hour to install it, and it will go fast.
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Well, the plumbing/HVAC trades pretty much went that way years ago. Plug 'n play domestic water manifold systems, with PEX tubing, no soldering required, just a plastic pipe cutter, and cans of glue/primer, flex duct, ductboard, used to have to buy a toilet, sink, or gas furnace thru a contractor, but the box stores/online sales changed that, but a lot of work remains to be had, rehabs of older homes, radiant/geothermal systems, electric radiant heat, and general service work. Today's younger folk have very few if any trade abilities, so there will always be work, and the shortage of skilled help.
 
mtfallsmikey said:
Well, the plumbing/HVAC trades pretty much went that way years ago. Plug 'n play domestic water manifold systems, with PEX tubing, no soldering required, just a plastic pipe cutter, and cans of glue/primer, flex duct, ductboard, used to have to buy a toilet, sink, or gas furnace thru a contractor, but the box stores/online sales changed that, but a lot of work remains to be had, rehabs of older homes, radiant/geothermal systems, electric radiant heat, and general service work. Today's younger folk have very few if any trade abilities, so there will always be work, and the shortage of skilled help.
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But there are still a lot of people that will hire a plumber because they don't trust their own work and don't want to have a leak destroy something, yet they have no problem doing electrical work that if done incorrectly could burn the place down or electrocute someone
 
In my area and I bet many areas you can have the power company provide site lighting from their poles for just a small monthly charge on your electric bill.

For example I looked at a job for a church that wanted to light the front of their place, for me to do it would have required new pole, an underground run across a parking lot etc. Far far more than they had to spend. I noticed a power company pole in a perfect spot so I told them to call the power company.

The power company installed a 1000 watt flood light on the pole and if it goes out they service it for free.

No charges for fixtures, lamps, ballasts etc. just one small flat monthly charge for having it.
 
kwired said:
But there are still a lot of people that will hire a plumber because they don't trust their own work and don't want to have a leak destroy something, yet they have no problem doing electrical work that if done incorrectly could burn the place down or electrocute someone
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And vice-versa. Cross-connection (backflow) circumvented or bypassed, raw sewage, mold, scalding hazards, all that and more. When I had my business going, Mondays were DIY rescue days, fixed the mistakes the Weekend Warriors made, much to the consternation of their wives....
 
iwire said:
:D

Ya think?

My point was it was a predictable low rate and it would take many years before they spent more on the rental than having us install a pole of their own.
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We had those in our trailer park, but we had to sit the poles. PECO Energy installed everything and took care of all the maintence. I'm going back to the 1970's but I remember my dad bragging about how cheap it was.
 
mtfallsmikey said:
And vice-versa. Cross-connection (backflow) circumvented or bypassed, raw sewage, mold, scalding hazards, all that and more. When I had my business going, Mondays were DIY rescue days, fixed the mistakes the Weekend Warriors made, much to the consternation of their wives....
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Those things can happen also, but they are only afraid of how much damage will occur if it leaks when making the decision of whether or not to do it themselves.
 
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