spa breaker size in dispute

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Coppersmith

Coppersmith

Senior Member
Location
Tampa, FL, USA
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Electrical Contractor
My client purchased a spa and asked me to put in a circuit for it. He showed me all the documentation for it and there was nothing about the breaker size although he said they told him 60 amp @ 240v. Wanting to verify, I called the seller and a grouchy lady barked it was 60 amps. I said I thought that was a bit high and could she verify. She called someone on the manufacturing floor and they said 50 amps. I waited until the spa arrived before purchasing an expensive 2 pole QO GFCI breaker (that may not be returnable) because this all sounded fishy.

The spa arrived and I looked for a nameplate with the required data. A sticker on the control box (where it gets wired) said 240v/60hz/40A. This is the only electrical data attached to the spa. I installed a 40 amp GFCI breaker and told my client the spa seller didn't seem to care too much about his safety.

Apparently my client called to complain and they sent him a page from some manual they never included with the sale that says if the "total amperage rating of the power system is 36 to 40 amp" then the GFCI breaker size should be "50 amps".

Does this seem right? I'm thinking 40 amps is still the correct size because the label says 40 amps. I measured amp readings averaging 35 amps with short spikes in the low 40's. (This is the spa heating up for the first time.) The breaker hasn't tripped so far. What say you experts?
 
IMO it all comes down to whether or not a SPA is considered a continuous load. I'd say not all of it is continuous load, parts of it may be.

General rule for selecting conductors and overcurrent protection is to use 125% of continuous load plus 100% of non continuous load.
You would need to break down individual loads within the SPA though to be accurate and determine what could possibly run for more then three hours at a time. Simple SPA with 1 pump and 1 heater - will run more then 3 hours when initially powering up a cold tub. After that may never run 3 hours until powering up a cold tub again. Don't know if that should be considered a continuous load or just an abnormal condition though.

My bet is OP will never have trouble tripping a 40 amp breaker on overload though.
 
I agree with it being considered continuous. If it's cold outside, mine has run for more than 3 hours trying to heat it up (when I forgot to close the cover...).

What size wire did you run? The breaker protects the wire, more than likely there are separate fuses inside of the spa panel that feed the heater elements and motor(s), that's the way mine is. So really the breaker is just there to protect the cables (and the GFCI to protect the users). I ran #6 and put a 50A GFCI CB, the wire was a little more but the breaker price was exactly the same for 40 or 50A.
 
I install several spas a year and my experience has been if the specs say 40A you need a 50A breaker. If it says 48A you need a 60A. Some specs will tell you this while others leave it up to you to check.

40 x 125 = 50
48 x 125 = 60
 
if the unit is marked to run 40A max, why would you use a 40A ocpd?

i agree with Little Bill, as long as the wire sizing is correct.
 
manufacturers instructions

manufacturers instructions

I have installed several of these over the years and they all came with a name plate or instructions for installation. I just followed the provided information. Should I have done my own calculations?
 
Little Bill said:
I install several spas a year and my experience has been if the specs say 40A you need a 50A breaker. If it says 48A you need a 60A. Some specs will tell you this while others leave it up to you to check.

40 x 125 = 50
48 x 125 = 60
Click to expand...
Keep in mind if you do need 48 x 1.25% conductor, that @60C 6 AWG NM cable is only good for 55 amps.
 
FionaZuppa said:
if the unit is marked to run 40A max, why would you use a 40A ocpd?

i agree with Little Bill, as long as the wire sizing is correct.
Click to expand...

First of all, I was expecting somebody to give a code reference. It's surprising nobody did.

Second, I installed a 40A OCPD because it said 40A max. A 40A OCPD should be able to handle 40A, right? A 50A OCPD would allow a much bigger overload. (And yes, I know I'm protecting the wire.) I wasn't contemplating continuous and non-continuous loads. That's probably where the discrepancy is, but shouldn't the label say use a 50A OCPD like A/C units do?

The wire is #6.

The 40A breaker is $50 less than the 50A at the same supply house. I have a feeling I'm going to get stuck with an expensive breaker now.

Nobody wanted to comment of how moronic the spa seller was?
 
Coppersmith said:
First of all, I was expecting somebody to give a code reference. It's surprising nobody did.

Second, I installed a 40A OCPD because it said 40A max. A 40A OCPD should be able to handle 40A, right?
Click to expand...
Yes, technically, but you can't use it that way. Again, size the wire for the load, size the breaker for the wire, you end up with 80% capacity of the breaker at best, and knowing that, the breakers are designed to be used that way when in a panel.

A 50A OCPD would allow a much bigger overload. (And yes, I know I'm protecting the wire.) I wasn't contemplating continuous and non-continuous loads. That's probably where the discrepancy is, but shouldn't the label say use a 50A OCPD like A/C units do?
Click to expand...
Should it? Sure. You tell them that... see what good it does.

The wire is #6.
Click to expand...
So why not just use the capacity of the wire?

The 40A breaker is $50 less than the 50A at the same supply house.
Click to expand...
Oh, there is it...

I have a feeling I'm going to get stuck with an expensive breaker now.
Click to expand...
40A breakers are good for a lot of kitchen circuits... probably something worth carrying in your truck anyway.

Nobody wanted to comment of how moronic the spa seller was?
Click to expand...
Isn't that a given? I suppose in a different time and a forgotten land, people who worked retail had jobs they really cared about and took time to learn how to provide valuable information, but those ships left the harbor long ago. Most people who work in a spa store do so because they can't find meaningful work somewhere else. I stopped expecting much out of any retail person decades ago. I have this argument with my wife all the time... "Why don't you just ask the guy you bought it from?" because, my experience tells me that they are likely to not know the answer, then make me wait while they go try to find someone who does, who will not really know either so will give me some BS answer to make me leave them alone.
 
mike_kilroy said:
Our calspa 6kw htr, 13amp motor, #6 wire, 40 amp cb never tripped in 24 yrs - yet. Same exact amp draw as yours.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
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Maybe we are moronic, but since it is in, why not leave it and see if your customer is as satisfied as others like me for the next 24 years? If not, replace it THEN. It's not like you broke the law giving even better protection...

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
 
Jraef said:
Isn't that a given? I suppose in a different time and a forgotten land, people who worked retail had jobs they really cared about and took time to learn how to provide valuable information, but those ships left the harbor long ago. Most people who work in a spa store do so because they can't find meaningful work somewhere else. I stopped expecting much out of any retail person decades ago. I have this argument with my wife all the time... "Why don't you just ask the guy you bought it from?" because, my experience tells me that they are likely to not know the answer, then make me wait while they go try to find someone who does, who will not really know either so will give me some BS answer to make me leave them alone.
Click to expand...

Or they are told even if they know how and why:
"do not tell the customer how to wire it because we will get blamed if they screw it up"
 
Coppersmith said:
First of all, I was expecting somebody to give a code reference. It's surprising nobody did.

Second, I installed a 40A OCPD because it said 40A max. A 40A OCPD should be able to handle 40A, right? A 50A OCPD would allow a much bigger overload. (And yes, I know I'm protecting the wire.) I wasn't contemplating continuous and non-continuous loads. That's probably where the discrepancy is, but shouldn't the label say use a 50A OCPD like A/C units do?....
Click to expand...

When the only electrical data that comes with the package says "40A" (probably does not say "40A Max") you are expected to size the actual breaker accordingly.
When the nameplate or documentation says "Max OCPD: 40A" (usually abbreviated MOCP) then you are not allowed to use a larger breaker unless you also provide something like a 40A fused disconnect down the line. When MOCP is specified, you usually also see Minimum Circuit Ampacity, MCA. That is what the wire needs to be sized for (from the 40A disconnect on down the line.)
 
GoldDigger said:
When the only electrical data that comes with the package says "40A" (probably does not say "40A Max") you are expected to size the actual breaker accordingly.
When the nameplate or documentation says "Max OCPD: 40A" (usually abbreviated MOCP) then you are not allowed to use a larger breaker unless you also provide something like a 40A fused disconnect down the line. When MOCP is specified, you usually also see Minimum Circuit Ampacity, MCA. That is what the wire needs to be sized for (from the 40A disconnect on down the line.)
Click to expand...

Never seen a hot tub nameplate or specs say "max breaker or MCA. Most of the time it gives an amp listing depending on what equipment is included, or most importantly what is run at the same time. ie, heater-pump, heater-2 pumps, etc.

The reason I know to use a 50A breaker when it says 40 or 60A when it says 48A is I was looking at a schematic on a control box and saw 48A but the specs said use a 60A. I dug into it a little deeper and saw where 125% was added to the values listed. Now I just ask the seller what equipment is there and what the customer wants to run together.

I've also saw a few that the specs and nameplate matched so if it said 50A then that's what is needed. I'm assuming in these cases there is no option of what runs together, it's "all" or nothing and they have already figured in the 125%.
 
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