Spare capacity in panelboards

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Re: Spare capacity in panelboards

Well just for those who don?t know.

This misconception of extra breakers came about by a bunch of idiots who install commercial and industrial systems. I have always said that a good residential man that learns to bend pipe can install commercial and industrial systems but a commercial or industrial man knows nothing about residential.

A lighting and appliance panel board can have no more than 14 three phase breakers because they are manufactured to hold only 42 circuits. Try and fill this same panel board with two pole breakers and you will have one left on each side.

General contractor asks the electrician what are these two spaces for and the idiot answers SPARES.
Now we have the concept started that we are to have spares because the idiot electrician didn?t take one of MY classes so he would know that they are supposed to use a three phase breaker on the bottom of both sides to prevent these free spaces.

Some will find this explanation logical while others will think of it as a total line of anal secretion. Personally I think it is pretty good until someone comes up with something better.
:D :D :D
 
Re: Spare capacity in panelboards

Some will find this explanation logical while others will think of it as a total line of anal secretion
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If you were posting a poll I would opt for the latter half of the sentence.
 
Re: Spare capacity in panelboards

JW,

I hope that you weren't offended. Your post was somewhat 'tongue in cheek' as was my response. :D
 
Re: Spare capacity in panelboards

It was meant to be a joke especially the part where I stated that if you took MY class you would know to use a three phase breaker so there would be no free space.

:D :D :cool:
 
Re: Spare capacity in panelboards

Originally posted by ryan_618:
Originally posted by LarryFine:
Make sure it's listed for the use, which is a generic NEC requirement.
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Where?
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110.3 Examination, Identification, Installation, and Use of Equipment.
(B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.
 
Re: Spare capacity in panelboards

Larry
110.3 only requires that equipment that has a listing to be installed according to the listed instructions or labeling that is included in the listing. It is not a requirment that electrical equipment has to be listed. ;)
 
Re: Spare capacity in panelboards

Originally posted by hurk27:
Larry
110.3 only requires that equipment that has a listing to be installed according to the listed instructions or labeling that is included in the listing. It is not a requirment that electrical equipment has to be listed. :)
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Re: Spare capacity in panelboards

Ryan
This is another section that is often twisted around by some to try to require that all equipment has to be listed, and that is not what 110.3 is saying at all.
 
Re: Spare capacity in panelboards

I agree with Wayne and Ryan as to 110.3(B)s intent. :cool:

However I certainly can see how it could be enforced in other ways.

110.3 Examination, Identification, Installation, and Use of Equipment.
(B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.
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IMO you could take this as saying you shall install listed equipment and the listed equipment shall be used per labeling.

However given that a lot of equipment is not listed (like motors) that can not be what 110.3(B) requires. :cool:
 
Re: Spare capacity in panelboards

Wayne comma or not it says the same thing. :D

Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instruction
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With my limited English education I believe it could be enforced either way.

Although I fully agree with you that the intent is only to follow the directions if listed equipment is used.

How about it Al H. or Charlie B., you guys are the word smiths. :cool:
 
Re: Spare capacity in panelboards

To go on the 'and' means both actions need to be taken.

I think it should actully be written more like this.

Bobs Version :p
110.3 Examination, Identification, Installation, and Use of Equipment.
(B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment when installed shall be used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.
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Re: Spare capacity in panelboards

Wayne comma or not it says the same thing.
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It does?

110.3 Examination, Identification, Installation, and Use of Equipment.
(B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed, and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.
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It puts the seperation in the one sentance to make it two requirments.

1.Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed,

2.and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.
 
Re: Spare capacity in panelboards

The title of (B) is not "Required to be Listed."

The title is "Installation and Use." Thus:

(B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.
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To segregate "installed" from "and used" in this sentence would not make sense, in light of the title of the subsection. ;)
 
Re: Spare capacity in panelboards

Wayne I am not sure I understand.

2002 NEC
(B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.
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I read it like this.

1)Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed

AND

2)used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.

Both parts must be followed right? :confused:

I say that still believing that is not the intent.


I still think the first part needs to say "when installed"

Not "Shall be installed"

Bob
 
Re: Spare capacity in panelboards

Originally posted by georgestolz:
More grammatically correct. You had a term in the passive sense. Or something like that. :D
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Thanks, I will gladly take help from those that understand the English language better than I. :cool:
 
Re: Spare capacity in panelboards

Yep I got that ther grammer stuff down, Bob. :D

Not to toot, but I tested in the 99th percentile in English portion of my ACT in high school. And consistently got C's in english, go figure. :p
 
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