Specifications
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Re: Specifications
Bob
I too work in areas that loss of production can be hundreds of thousands of dollars per hr. If this work is as critical as that then you had better get a contractor that understands what it takes, and that means to the letter of the spec. no exceptions. How much production is lost when a line goes down because spec wasn't followed.
A ground wire may seem insignificant vs. the conduit as a GEC but it may well be much more important than that per manufacturers requirements. I.E. warrantee The EC cannot make those decision.
Bob
I too work in areas that loss of production can be hundreds of thousands of dollars per hr. If this work is as critical as that then you had better get a contractor that understands what it takes, and that means to the letter of the spec. no exceptions. How much production is lost when a line goes down because spec wasn't followed.
A ground wire may seem insignificant vs. the conduit as a GEC but it may well be much more important than that per manufacturers requirements. I.E. warrantee The EC cannot make those decision.
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
Re: Specifications
I have to occasionally decide these things, often with informal consultation involving the end user. We have to weigh the cost of lost production against the benefit of changing whatever might have been done in violation of the spec.
One of the things I typically put in a spec is to install wire ferrules or other connectors on wires smaller than #18. Otherwise the wires get frayed over time.
What do you do if the machine is all wired up and about to go back into production and you discover a few dozen terminations of small wires made w/o ferrules? do I stop production, call the EC in, and make him "fix" it? or do I make a judgement call that moving along is more important? most of the time money wins out.
I work with another EC who periodically decides to make up his own wire numbers instead of using the ones on my drawings. Sometimes they seem random, other times they make some kind of sense. It makes it harder to debug the wiring, but it does not affect operation or safety. I usually do not make an issue of such things unless I can catch them very early. usually by the time I notice it is too late to really do anything about it.
I have to occasionally decide these things, often with informal consultation involving the end user. We have to weigh the cost of lost production against the benefit of changing whatever might have been done in violation of the spec.
One of the things I typically put in a spec is to install wire ferrules or other connectors on wires smaller than #18. Otherwise the wires get frayed over time.
What do you do if the machine is all wired up and about to go back into production and you discover a few dozen terminations of small wires made w/o ferrules? do I stop production, call the EC in, and make him "fix" it? or do I make a judgement call that moving along is more important? most of the time money wins out.
I work with another EC who periodically decides to make up his own wire numbers instead of using the ones on my drawings. Sometimes they seem random, other times they make some kind of sense. It makes it harder to debug the wiring, but it does not affect operation or safety. I usually do not make an issue of such things unless I can catch them very early. usually by the time I notice it is too late to really do anything about it.
hardworkingstiff
Senior Member
- Location
- Wilmington, NC
Re: Specifications
If the specs are not enforced, then the cognizant contractor that reads and follows the specs is handicapped on bid day.
If the specs are not enforced, then the cognizant contractor that reads and follows the specs is handicapped on bid day.
tx2step
Senior Member
- Location
- North Texas, DFW area
Re: Specifications
If the person responsible for enforcing spec requirements lets a regular contractor repeatedly get by with being non-compliant, then said contractor soon learns where he can get by with doing less and thus save on costs. This puts a different contractor (who intends to fully comply with the specs) at a pricing disadvantage when he bids on a project.
In effect, by repeatedly letting a contractor get by with not meeting spec, then you are ensuring that that??is the only type of work that you will get.
It works the same way when an AHJ doesn't enforce the code -- It just gives contractors that bend the rules a competitive advantage and ensures that more work will be done substandard.
In the end, the parties responsible would be better served (as would their client or the public) to strictly enforce compliance with both contract specifications and code requirements. If you don't, then you become an "enabler" and just perpetuate the practice. You become part of the cause and part of the problem. :roll:
If you inspect in time and consistently make the contractor fix non-compliant work, then in short order that contractor will decide that it's less expensive to just do it right in the first place and will stop cutting corners.
That will provide a level playing field for other good contractors.
It's not complicated -- the solution rests in the hands of the engineer, inspector or other AHJ just consistently enforcing the required standards. If you don't, then don't complain about your world being populated with crummy contractors.
Absolutely true!
If the person responsible for enforcing spec requirements lets a regular contractor repeatedly get by with being non-compliant, then said contractor soon learns where he can get by with doing less and thus save on costs. This puts a different contractor (who intends to fully comply with the specs) at a pricing disadvantage when he bids on a project.
In effect, by repeatedly letting a contractor get by with not meeting spec, then you are ensuring that that??is the only type of work that you will get.
It works the same way when an AHJ doesn't enforce the code -- It just gives contractors that bend the rules a competitive advantage and ensures that more work will be done substandard.
In the end, the parties responsible would be better served (as would their client or the public) to strictly enforce compliance with both contract specifications and code requirements. If you don't, then you become an "enabler" and just perpetuate the practice. You become part of the cause and part of the problem. :roll:
If you inspect in time and consistently make the contractor fix non-compliant work, then in short order that contractor will decide that it's less expensive to just do it right in the first place and will stop cutting corners.
That will provide a level playing field for other good contractors.
It's not complicated -- the solution rests in the hands of the engineer, inspector or other AHJ just consistently enforcing the required standards. If you don't, then don't complain about your world being populated with crummy contractors.
tx2step
Senior Member
- Location
- North Texas, DFW area
Re: Specifications
And that's why you keep having the same problem repeating over and over again.
hardworkingstiff
Senior Member
- Location
- Wilmington, NC
Re: Specifications
One more question.
If you are not going to enforce the specs, why write them, just say must be compliant with the NEC.
One more question.
If you are not going to enforce the specs, why write them, just say must be compliant with the NEC.
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
Re: Specifications
In some respects you are correct. On the other hand, in this case I did not hire or chose the EC. the end user thinks very highly of the foreman for reasons that i do not fully understand, despite the mediocre work the foreman does. I have worked with a number of their apprentices and journeyman and found them to be top notch. It's a situation i do not like but unless it is something that is very serious, I am not going to stop a potential 1/2 billion dollar project over a few wire numbers or ferrules.
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: Specifications
Tx2step, that is what the Inspection Initiative is all about that the IAEI is pushing with the various municipalities and jurisdictions.
Tx2step, that is what the Inspection Initiative is all about that the IAEI is pushing with the various municipalities and jurisdictions.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: Specifications
We actually stopped submitting bids to a major client because the client did not enforce the specs. They were doing a lot of work, with most of the projects in the .5 to 1.5 million range. We were getting beat on the bids, but when we would go in to bid the next project we would find that the contractor that got the previous job had not made the installation per the specs. In these cases there was a significant difference in the installation costs between the specified work and the work that was actually installed. We were just wasting time and money bidding for this client.
If the engineers and clients want quality work and bids, the specs must be enforced. As soon as some contractors find out the specs are not being enforced, they start taking short cuts. This is not fair to the client or to the contractors that follow the contract documents.
Don
We actually stopped submitting bids to a major client because the client did not enforce the specs. They were doing a lot of work, with most of the projects in the .5 to 1.5 million range. We were getting beat on the bids, but when we would go in to bid the next project we would find that the contractor that got the previous job had not made the installation per the specs. In these cases there was a significant difference in the installation costs between the specified work and the work that was actually installed. We were just wasting time and money bidding for this client.
If the engineers and clients want quality work and bids, the specs must be enforced. As soon as some contractors find out the specs are not being enforced, they start taking short cuts. This is not fair to the client or to the contractors that follow the contract documents.
Don
Re: Specifications
I for one believe in reading the job specifications as outlined.And should be read and followed by all electrical contractors, on any given project.
I had the opportunity of being part of a team years ago that had to come in behind others, on a large medical drug development project in Greenville N.Carolina. Where all of the field electrical supervision on site was fired.This shift in team, consisted of Foremans, Supervisior,all the way to Project Manager..Among the many other numerous job mistakes,not following the outlined Job Specifications..
One of the contract spec violations,was the purchase of unistrut type conduit straps.Specified as two manufacturers,of equal construction.(can't remeber if the word-"OR"-as being part of it.)
The type of Unistrut/Kindorf type conduit strap purchased and installed for the smaller raceways throughout this project were of a cheap-knock-off brand and were considered, and deemed "not equal" ..And not excceptable..
Some of this installation was exposed work.But some of it was above ceiling with deck heights, well above the ceiling heights of clean areas.
All of these smaller Unistrut type conduit straps,-(the kind manufactured & attached back-to back that you bend and break-off)-were caught late in the project construction,and had to be changed at time-frame running concurrent with the contract date deadline. They were changed by A-frame type ladders through ceiling-grid,and built stages above sheet-rock ceilings.By the pulling of the 2x4 lighting fixtures out of ceiling,and in the staging on-top of walls to access the above trapeze hangers suspended from the above decking and I-beam...It was very,very time consuming in replacement of..
We had to change most of these conduit straps,due to fact of someone cutting-corners in the purchasing, and not following the material specification guildlines.
Sence, I'm a firm believer in reading, following the outlined electrical specifications as the guildlines.
This was just one specification violation, that I remeber this electrical contractor got caught with. His pants were way down around his ankles in not following what he had already submitted,and in not following the outlined contract document specification.So be carefull of what you choose to ignore, even in the smallest criteria. In the disregarding of,or just not reading or following the outlined contract specification..
Yes,this is a true story..
I for one believe in reading the job specifications as outlined.And should be read and followed by all electrical contractors, on any given project.
I had the opportunity of being part of a team years ago that had to come in behind others, on a large medical drug development project in Greenville N.Carolina. Where all of the field electrical supervision on site was fired.This shift in team, consisted of Foremans, Supervisior,all the way to Project Manager..Among the many other numerous job mistakes,not following the outlined Job Specifications..
One of the contract spec violations,was the purchase of unistrut type conduit straps.Specified as two manufacturers,of equal construction.(can't remeber if the word-"OR"-as being part of it.)
The type of Unistrut/Kindorf type conduit strap purchased and installed for the smaller raceways throughout this project were of a cheap-knock-off brand and were considered, and deemed "not equal" ..And not excceptable..
Some of this installation was exposed work.But some of it was above ceiling with deck heights, well above the ceiling heights of clean areas.
All of these smaller Unistrut type conduit straps,-(the kind manufactured & attached back-to back that you bend and break-off)-were caught late in the project construction,and had to be changed at time-frame running concurrent with the contract date deadline. They were changed by A-frame type ladders through ceiling-grid,and built stages above sheet-rock ceilings.By the pulling of the 2x4 lighting fixtures out of ceiling,and in the staging on-top of walls to access the above trapeze hangers suspended from the above decking and I-beam...It was very,very time consuming in replacement of..
We had to change most of these conduit straps,due to fact of someone cutting-corners in the purchasing, and not following the material specification guildlines.
Sence, I'm a firm believer in reading, following the outlined electrical specifications as the guildlines.
This was just one specification violation, that I remeber this electrical contractor got caught with. His pants were way down around his ankles in not following what he had already submitted,and in not following the outlined contract document specification.So be carefull of what you choose to ignore, even in the smallest criteria. In the disregarding of,or just not reading or following the outlined contract specification..
Yes,this is a true story..
Re: Specifications
Lady,
To get people to read the specs I have seen Engineers write in dollar allowances into various sections of the specifications. One example was for the electrical contractor to carry an allowance of $25,000 for furniture in the main security office. Once a contractor gets burned on a few of these items they will know that they need to read the specifications thoroughly. Also if they miss these items the owner basically gets the items for free.
-Ed
Lady,
To get people to read the specs I have seen Engineers write in dollar allowances into various sections of the specifications. One example was for the electrical contractor to carry an allowance of $25,000 for furniture in the main security office. Once a contractor gets burned on a few of these items they will know that they need to read the specifications thoroughly. Also if they miss these items the owner basically gets the items for free.
-Ed
tx2step
Senior Member
- Location
- North Texas, DFW area
Re: Specifications
There you go -- I knew that some of the A/E's were laying a few traps out there to see if we are paying attention. Based on what I've seen, I was sure that's what they were doing, coupled with the fact that if I was in their place, it is exactly what I'd do. And who can blame them? Do you ever feel sorry for the poor stupid fish that takes your bait? Or do you just smile, get out the tartar sauce and enjoy the meal?
luke warmwater
Senior Member
Re: Specifications
We also had a similar situation.
And, I know of a tract-home company that is doing sub-standard work. The specs call for certain brands to be used and they are not using them. The Job Forman for the Builder are not enforcing the specs.
This particular Builder has deals with the Manufacturers of the products that they spec. The Manufacturers give the builder money back based on the proposed dollar amounts.
So the Manufacturers are flat-out getting ripped off.
Don, I absolutely agree.
We also had a similar situation.
And, I know of a tract-home company that is doing sub-standard work. The specs call for certain brands to be used and they are not using them. The Job Forman for the Builder are not enforcing the specs.
This particular Builder has deals with the Manufacturers of the products that they spec. The Manufacturers give the builder money back based on the proposed dollar amounts.
So the Manufacturers are flat-out getting ripped off.
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