Speed wire Receptacles

[racraft]

Re: Speed wire Receptacles

My objection to using 12 gauge wire on a 14 gauge circuit only has to do with the situations I described, not with a long run or other special case. I also did not say it was against code.

I can see some homeowner in the future seeing 12 gauge wire and incorrectly thinking they can put add a 20 amp outlet on a circuit, never bothering to check the breaker even when they turn it off to add the new outlet.

If there is a bona fide need or good reason for a larger wire size then use it. If however there is no good reason for it then I say stick with the wire size already used on the circuit.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Speed wire Receptacles

I worry about something worse. The circuit starts at the panel as #12 and then changes to #14.
10 years later henry handyman changes that 15 amp breaker to a 20.Why not its #12 good for 20

[ January 10, 2004, 06:19 PM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]

 

[iwire]

Re: Speed wire Receptacles

The word is "qualified" a non qualified person can make a mess out of any wiring system.

Jim I have installed 4 AWG copper to feed roof outlets, should I worry someone will change the breaker from a 20 to a 90?

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Speed wire Receptacles

Assuming this is a high rise and they have a house electrician,NO
Do you agree that unqualified florida sparky might change my 15 to a 20 ?
We have all seen 30 amp screw in fuses.
I had a electrician friend i worked with for at least a year.On visiting the home he and his girlfriend lived in ,he bragged about how he fixed a tripping bedroom 15 circuit.
He used 1 half of a 50 amp 2 pole
I lost all my confidence in him in less than 5 seconds

[ January 10, 2004, 06:35 PM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]

 

[iwire]

Re: Speed wire Receptacles

Actually it was a single floor structure, but they do have in house guys.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Speed wire Receptacles

Maybe protect our trade like the AC guys dnly licensed can buy(or friends of licensed).
Sad thing is that insurance companies got to pay even when i remove that penny.
penny = --- amps
Try this one ,several years back when visiting kin folk (ky) they had exstention cords all over the trailer.Was told that half of the receptacles don't work.Next morning after i eat my grits i investigate.Find the plug for trailer had corrosion so one side was dead.Checking out panel in the CLOSET i find screw in fuses all normal except one circuit it went to the bus bar screw.Here is a 40 year old trailer that somehow servived all these years with an unfused circuit.
And thats the one they had everything plugged into.
THIS ONE OVER HERE NEVER BLOWS A FUSE

[ January 10, 2004, 07:00 PM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]

 

[iwire]

Re: Speed wire Receptacles

Originally posted by jimwalker:
Maybe protect our trade like the AC guys dnly licensed can buy(or friends of licensed).

I can not speak for FL but here I can buy any HVAC equipment I want except for ozone depleting refrigerants.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Speed wire Receptacles

READ MY EDIT
And im sure they buy that permit on the way home with that new AC in the pickup.
On the final of a new house i just built (no ac yet,ran out of money )there on the living room floor sits a shiny new split unit.
I knowed the inspector, asked him if he thought it was a good brand.Out back he sees a large hole and inquires.Its for our pool.His answer: Jim you know you need a permit to do that.My reply ---- its just a hole right now,dont need permit for a hole in ground.Shakes head and asks where is the permit board for the house

 

[tim]

Re: Speed wire Receptacles

racfrat,BOB, We don't buy any 14-2- period! Like everyone above stated, if it is fused correctly it doesn't matter. In my line of work it is easier to just stock 20 amp breakers and 12-2 on the truck. You can play the what if game all you want.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Speed wire Receptacles

Tim unless your doing track homes,that few dollars won't make any differance.Now if we are talking 2000 homes a year then maybe you better rethink.

 

[tonyi]

Re: Speed wire Receptacles

When I have had occasion to mix sizes for valid reasons, I've taken to writing a little note inside the panel cover that says something to the effect

"if you don't understand derating and voltage drop, don't mess with the breaker sizes - they are what they are for a good reason"

or when I've found #14 mixed in somewhere on an otherwise #12 branch that had a 20A breaker where it was OK to downgrade it to 15A, I'll make a note:

"this breaker must stay 15A because #14 wire is present downstream"

Might save the next guy a bunch of head scratching and sleuthing around, or prevent a homeowner from over fusing something. Sometimes the next guy is me and my little "implementation notes" I've left jog the memory cells and make cutting back into something a year or two later a lot quicker.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Speed wire Receptacles

Not a bad idea . Maybe add this to the sticker that says this house proudly wired by Sparky electric inc.
Them stickers do pay off

 

[speedypetey]

Re: Speed wire Receptacles

Originally posted by binney:
[ How long does it take you to tail down the reds, tail down the blacks, tail down the nuetral . While your doing this I'm 20 boxes ahead with my greenies. Away I GO! After I'm done roughing, I'll go do a plug a switch and be done with that before your done roughing.

OK, maybe in the 2 or 3 bedrooms this applies.
If I had a boss so concerned with the little time it takes to do it the right way as opposed to backstabbing I'd wonder where else he was cutting corners.
I can't handle companies who come down on their men with the time issue because they can't bid a job.
Let them turn the screws on you a little tighter.

 

[binney]

Re: Speed wire Receptacles

OK! I'll admit it, back stabbing is not the best method but it saves more time then you are guys are giving it credit for. We can sit here and compare you to me all day but there's no way we can compare ourselves fairly.

The best comparison I can give you is the difference I seen when I switched over from a "wraper" to a "stabber" or actually a "stabbing wrapper".

When I started with my current company I was thrown onto a rough with a helper. The rough took us just about 3 days 28hours. After being questioned on what took so long they sent me on a few roughs with other foreman, this is where I learned of the world of being a "stabbing wrapper".

We do model homes so it's easy to compare apples to apples. My roughs on this particular model now take just 2 days, betweeen 18-20hours. These models have switched outlets in almost all the rooms. So if you have 2 3-wires, or 4 2-wires in an outlet box there's still no splicing. 3 2-wires in a switch box just the nuetrals.

Try leaving all your splicing at rough and doing it at finish see the differnce it makes in your rough times, I was amazed.

So say it saves you only 3 hours per rough we do 300+ houses per year @ $20/hr.

3hrs.x300 houses= 900hrs. x$20/hr=$18,000

450hrs @$15/hr(our helpers avg pay) = $6,750
450hrs @$20/hr(our avg. foreman pay)= $9,000

That gives you $15,750. For that you can afford a lot of service calls.

As competitive as the economy is around here every penny counts. In my perfect world I'd like to see every box spliced down to the minimum so there's no feed through on an outlet, then there would be no lost nuetrals or hots lost. That's just not practical.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Speed wire Receptacles

Using your own numbers 28 hours and 2 men = 56 man hours
and then you say down to 18 or 20.If my math is correct you are saying you cut the time by 8 to 10 hours times 2 men.Thats 16 to 20 hours to cut in.Then at end you talk about saving 3 hours a piece.Not adding.
Anyones first project with new boss and helper wont be at full speed.
I will agree you save the cut in man maybe 3 hours.But you lose some if this on the trim now.
Using dollars to compare is only fare if we use all the numbers ,like the value of all the houses for the year aginst wages.
With afci coming into play and causing problems i think maybe we better slow down a bit and wrap.
There were some good reasons they stopped stabbing on #12

[ January 11, 2004, 11:02 AM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]

 

[binney]

Re: Speed wire Receptacles

Then at end you talk about saving 3 hours a piece.Not adding.
Anyones first project with new boss and helper wont be at full speed.

You answered your own question. I didn't take the whole 8-10 hours because there could be some argument that it was a new place of employment.

I will agree you save the cut in man maybe 3 hours.But you lose some if this on the trim now

We don't lose any at the trim because where"wrappers & stabbers". Up to 4 wires in the back and up to 4 wires on the screws.

I was being generous with my 3 hours it's more like 4-5 hours depending on the size of the job.

Let's take 5 hours

(5hrs.x 300 houses)x$17.50 avg. wage=$26,250

That's a lot of money that gets shoved back into the budget. My boss may take some short cuts, but he also pays better than any other contractor in my area.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Speed wire Receptacles

Will admit if it puts more in my pocket and the customer gets slightly less that i am happy camper.Starting to get scared over these afci.But bottom line is thats the bosses problem not mine.Was raised to look out for #1 and he is somewhere way on down the line.

 

[speedypetey]

Re: Speed wire Receptacles

Try leaving all your splicing at rough and doing it at finish see the differnce it makes in your rough times, I was amazed.

Of course it saves time. Time you just spend at the trim out. I would flat out refuse to leave splicing 'till the finish.

What if you don't go back? Who is going to decipher you wire marks? I had a boss years back go around and cut off "all that wasted slack". The slack which contained all the markings because he wanted to "save time" at the rough.

A child could trim out one of my houses.

 

[ryan_618]

Re: Speed wire Receptacles

Pete: I see eye to eye with you on this.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Speed wire Receptacles

Don't know about up north but we must splice on rough for inspection.Maybe so they can see the greenie