ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Would you consider sprinkler piping to be "water piping" or "other piping", for the purposes of 250.104(A) and (B), and 250.50?
Sprinkler piping
- Thread starter ryan_618
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Sprinkler piping
As sprinkler piping commonly runs outside underground and is very likely to be directly bonded to the utility supply system in other areas I would say that table 250.66 would need to be used so I would call it water piping.
As sprinkler piping commonly runs outside underground and is very likely to be directly bonded to the utility supply system in other areas I would say that table 250.66 would need to be used so I would call it water piping.
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- Semi-retired engineer
Re: Sprinkler piping
are we talking lawn sprinklers or fire sprinklers?
are we talking lawn sprinklers or fire sprinklers?
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Sprinkler piping
I assumed fire but that is a good question.
I assumed fire but that is a good question.
Re: Sprinkler piping
Ryan,
you raise a good point that stuck out in my mind in a installation, I seen two weeks ago on a two(2) story building,in another neighboring county..
The GC was trying to eject a Large Electical Contractor from this job,for numerous code violation and slowing progress of job.(in really bad blood)
They called us in on T&M to start taking care of some of the work related contract,running concurrent while this contractor was still on site.
While looking over his 800 ampere service (in useing parallel 600kcmil)in his installation,(and not yet approved for temp.power)and noticing he had dropped the ball in 312 table.I began looking @ his electrode conductors and the bonding of the system to the electrodes.(3/0 in size)
*He had his cold water bonded,and structural steel,but then noticed the sprinkler system located 25 ft.horizontally, high-up in the ceiling away from the service.
The Inspector had required on one of the trips out, to bond sprinkler line back to service. Noted: The Inspector was all over this electrician's installation. and had the man's nerves tore-all-up.
*Anyway..It had a full-size GEC(*250.66) attached to this sprinkler line,and bonded back to grounded terminal and I do believe the inspector, had required it.
*my first thought,was 250.104(b) via table 250.122 in size.
I didn't give another thought about it,till just now in reading your post Ryan.
I hadn't seen this required before..
[ September 07, 2005, 11:04 AM: Message edited by: dillon3c ]
Ryan,
you raise a good point that stuck out in my mind in a installation, I seen two weeks ago on a two(2) story building,in another neighboring county..
The GC was trying to eject a Large Electical Contractor from this job,for numerous code violation and slowing progress of job.(in really bad blood)
They called us in on T&M to start taking care of some of the work related contract,running concurrent while this contractor was still on site.
While looking over his 800 ampere service (in useing parallel 600kcmil)in his installation,(and not yet approved for temp.power)and noticing he had dropped the ball in 312 table.I began looking @ his electrode conductors and the bonding of the system to the electrodes.(3/0 in size)
*He had his cold water bonded,and structural steel,but then noticed the sprinkler system located 25 ft.horizontally, high-up in the ceiling away from the service.
The Inspector had required on one of the trips out, to bond sprinkler line back to service. Noted: The Inspector was all over this electrician's installation. and had the man's nerves tore-all-up.
*Anyway..It had a full-size GEC(*250.66) attached to this sprinkler line,and bonded back to grounded terminal and I do believe the inspector, had required it.
*my first thought,was 250.104(b) via table 250.122 in size.
I didn't give another thought about it,till just now in reading your post Ryan.
I hadn't seen this required before..
[ September 07, 2005, 11:04 AM: Message edited by: dillon3c ]
Re: Sprinkler piping
Ryan, aren't most Fire Sprinkler systems common to the domestic water system at some point with a back flow preventer and possibly a PIV and bypass piping? I can't recall ever seeing a dielectric separation between the two systems.
If that is the case, wouldn't this additional material and labor be unnecessary?
Roger
Ryan, aren't most Fire Sprinkler systems common to the domestic water system at some point with a back flow preventer and possibly a PIV and bypass piping? I can't recall ever seeing a dielectric separation between the two systems.
If that is the case, wouldn't this additional material and labor be unnecessary?
Roger
ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: Sprinkler piping
Guys, I aprreciate the opinions very much.
Roger, In all honesty, I don't know enough about it to answer your question.
What I have decided to do is submit a proposal to 250.104(B) to add "including fire sprinkler piping" right after where it says "including gas piping". I will let panel 5 answer it in the form of the ROP.
By the way, I spoke to two different members of panel 5 that I am freinds with...their two answers were exactly opposite each other!
Guys, I aprreciate the opinions very much.
Roger, In all honesty, I don't know enough about it to answer your question.
What I have decided to do is submit a proposal to 250.104(B) to add "including fire sprinkler piping" right after where it says "including gas piping". I will let panel 5 answer it in the form of the ROP.
By the way, I spoke to two different members of panel 5 that I am freinds with...their two answers were exactly opposite each other!
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
Re: Sprinkler piping
Wouldn't the sprinkler pipe be bonded via the ground wire that is connected to the flow and tamper switches?
[I suspect that Bob/Iwire is the only one who will get this joke! ]
Wouldn't the sprinkler pipe be bonded via the ground wire that is connected to the flow and tamper switches?
[I suspect that Bob/Iwire is the only one who will get this joke!
]
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Re: Sprinkler piping
Perhaps you're referring to the EGC of the circuit likely to energize the equipment.Originally posted by peter d:
[I suspect that Bob/Iwire is the only one who will get this joke!
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: Sprinkler piping
I flex in the LV fire-alarms. I install a ground screw with pigtail in the 4 11/16's box that houses the surge protector (for the outside fire alarm conductors that enter the building).
The path is through the flex, perhaps a 4 square or two, and ultimately to the flow, which is a metallic box installed on a metal pipe.
So there!
That's not funny.
I flex in the LV fire-alarms. I install a ground screw with pigtail in the 4 11/16's box that houses the surge protector (for the outside fire alarm conductors that enter the building).
The path is through the flex, perhaps a 4 square or two, and ultimately to the flow, which is a metallic box installed on a metal pipe.
So there!
stud696981
Senior Member
Re: Sprinkler piping
Most of the systems I have seen have one water line entering the building and then split off, one goes to the fire sprinkler and the other to the domestic water line. With this, all are bonded together by the connecting parts, no need for a bonding jumper.
I did see one a few years back that the sprinkler had a separate water line brought in. In that case a separate bonding jumper was pulled and connected to it.
Most of the systems I have seen have one water line entering the building and then split off, one goes to the fire sprinkler and the other to the domestic water line. With this, all are bonded together by the connecting parts, no need for a bonding jumper.
I did see one a few years back that the sprinkler had a separate water line brought in. In that case a separate bonding jumper was pulled and connected to it.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: Sprinkler piping
That's the way they are here, at least some of the ones I've seen. I believe they were connected somehow, now I'll have to double-check.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Sprinkler piping
In this area the sprinkler main and water main enter the building separately.
They may well join together outside but as they are buried and we can not see that IMO we have to treat them separately.
In this area the sprinkler main and water main enter the building separately.
They may well join together outside but as they are buried and we can not see that IMO we have to treat them separately.
Re: Sprinkler piping
This brings up the question,if considered water piping,if the domestic water pipe is PVC or not metal for 10' underground the fire sprinkler is now the prefered electrode? This is if the fire sprinkler is in fact 10' or more underground.
Connection is made 5' upon entering the building?
This brings up the question,if considered water piping,if the domestic water pipe is PVC or not metal for 10' underground the fire sprinkler is now the prefered electrode? This is if the fire sprinkler is in fact 10' or more underground.
Connection is made 5' upon entering the building?
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