Sq. D QO Service Panel

[Travlin_man37]

All,

This is a Square D QO Main Service panel located in an approximate 15 year old high end residence. The original call was simply to troubleshoot a branch circuit that was tripping about once per day. There has been some remodeling done in the past with the recent addition of a home theater in the finished basement. The contractor who did this work was pretty bad and I've already replaced the breakers he added, which were not Sq. D breakers with the correct Sq. D QO unit. I'm just looking for suggestions on how to handle correcting this panel (without replacing) and the ensuing discussions with the HO regarding the fallout from a simple issue with a faulty branch circuit.

BTW, I've enjoyed this forum for quite some time, however this is my first post....

Regards,

Ed

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ehs1962/4276362315/

 

[480sparky]

What's the story with the ground lug and bare ground?

 

[Travlin_man37]

I'm sure this panel could tell an interesting story if it could talk. Notice the EGC(s) are attached to the gnd bar which is just floating in the panel. It also appears all of the neutrals are "double/triple" tapped. Your question is part of the reason I decided to share this with the forum.

Ed

 

[brichter]

Is the floating equipment ground bus a result of this panel being downstream of the service disconnect?

 

[charlietuna]

Install your data logger on the effected circuit and have the homeowner call you when it trips. Then your know the actual problem.

 

[Travlin_man37]

Please pardon me if I'm a bit slow responding.

Is the floating equipment ground bus a result of this panel being downstream of the service disconnect?

The 200A main in this panel is the only disconnection device. The service-entrance conductors terminate directly at the meter.

Install your data logger on the effected circuit and have the homeowner call you when it trips. Then your know the actual problem.

This is one of the issues, solving the problem related to the original call was easy in this case. Turned out to be a bad doorbell/intercom transformer. Getting his buy in to repalce the non-listed breakers was also no big deal, there were a total of 5, 15A single pole units. Now the question is, since I now know of these other problems with this panel, I feel obliagted to find the most cost effective solution and inform the HO that it is required to be corrected.

Thanks for the quick responses.

Ed

 

[jwjrw]

Looks like a sub panel because grounds and neutrals are seperated but the ground looks like it used to go to the guts which would make it look like its the main service panel. I'd like to know where all the bare is going too....

 

[Travlin_man37]

I'd like to know where all the bare is going too....

The three #4 bare copper gounds attached to the "floating" ground bus bar are the two grounding electrode conductors, one going to a ground rod and the second going to the water line and a bonding jumper going to the ground lug on the panel along with the EGC coming in with the service entrance cable.

Ed

 

[jzadroga]

If this panel hasn't been modified then the ground from the meter can be landed in the lug next to the neutral. That eliminates the ground lug. The floating bus bar should have a hole that will allow a machine screw to attach it to the neutral bus bar. Why it was removed I don't understand. Then you need to use a bonding screw on the right neutral buss bar to bond the panel to the neutral (there is a hole for this purpose). You might have to order the bond screw unless you can find one. As far as the amount of nuetrals in a hole, square d has ground bar kits from your supplier that the grounds can be landed on freeing up more neutral connections. Also there should be 2 neutral bus bars on the left. Its looks like one was taken out. Of course all this means you will probably have to extend some of the wires to make it work.

 

[fishin' electrician]

I'm curious, what breakers fit in a QO panel that aren't QO?

 

[Travlin_man37]

I'm curious, what breakers fit in a QO panel that aren't QO?

You know that is what I thought also, but this panel had 5 20A (I'm sorry I said 15A earlier, they are actually 20A) single pole breakers with the words "Classified Product" in yellow on the front of the breaker. The best that I can tell, these are made by "Challenger". I'm aware of the debate over the use of "Classified" breakers, but in this case QO breakers are readily available.

 

[fishin' electrician]

You know that is what I thought also, but this panel had 5 20A (I'm sorry I said 15A earlier, they are actually 20A) single pole breakers with the words "Classified Product" in yellow on the front of the breaker. The best that I can tell, these are made by "Challenger". I'm aware of the debate over the use of "Classified" breakers, but in this case QO breakers are readily available.

OK thanks, I saw those once a few years ago.

Yeah, one of those easier to just change than fight, sometimes though it's more fun to fight .

 

[ceb58]

I'm curious, what breakers fit in a QO panel that aren't QO?

Cuttler- Hammer CH type breakers will fit a QO and vice verse. Do not know if they are listed to interchange.

 

[fishin' electrician]

Cuttler- Hammer CH type breakers will fit a QO and vice verse. Do not know if they are listed to interchange.

Interesting, I don't see those much and only thought they were similar.

 

[Travlin_man37]

Cuttler- Hammer CH type breakers will fit a QO and vice verse. Do not know if they are listed to interchange.

Not to re-open this debate, but you can go to the C-H web site and find the information on their CHQ breakers. I believe that are "Classified" by C-H to for use in a QO panel but not "Listed" by Square D for use in their QO panel. Clear as mud, right?

 

[LarryFine]

Okay, I did a magnify (click right atop the image), and here's what I see, starting with the panel before it was hacked:

The bar where the incoming neutral is landed runs behind both line terminals, making the bus on the left and the two on the right all neutral terminals. The bonding screw goes in the hole between the top of the two right buses.

Now, after hacking:

The installer mistakenly lifted the single bus on the left, leaving it hanging, and jumpered it to the lug he added to the enclosure. By the way, he also split the bare conductor between the two lug holes, one of which also has the jumper.

Either an SE cable should have been used, or there should have been an exterior disconnect installed. From what we see, I think we can conclude that the neutral and EGC are both stuffed into the meter base's neutral terminal.

I have a funny feeling this install was never inspected, or at least not correctly.

 

[brichter]

Either an SE cable should have been used, or there should have been an exterior disconnect installed. From what we see, I think we can conclude that the neutral and EGC are both stuffed into the meter base's neutral terminal.



I could easily have missed something but I don't see how you could come to this conclusion from that photo.

 

[norcal]

Cuttler- Hammer CH type breakers will fit a QO and vice verse. Do not know if they are listed to interchange.

They will plug into each others bus stabs but they clip on the panel interior differently, so do not see any way they can be allowed to interchange.

Siemens & Cutler-Hammer both produce UL classified breakers to replace certain SQ D QO breakers.

 

[LarryFine]

I could easily have missed something but I don't see how you could come to this conclusion from that photo.

Since there are separate neutral and grounding conductors at this load end of the service cable/feeder, they must be connected together at the source end. I sure hope so, anyway.

 

[kbsparky]

....Either an SE cable should have been used, or there should have been an exterior disconnect installed. From what we see, I think we can conclude that the neutral and EGC are both stuffed into the meter base's neutral terminal.....

Ummm ... that is a type SE cable there, bud. Type SE style R.

It appears that they separated the grounds from the neutral on purpose, and did not want to buy a separate ground bar kit. So, they installed a double lug, and isolated the "ground bar" from the neutrals.

The question to ask the OP now: Does the meter box have an integral disconnect (meter/main)? Or is it configured they way you suggested with both the ground and neutral wires stuffed into the same lug?