Square foot pricing...

[DanZ]

Okay, I know square foot pricing won't really work in commercial. I've tried explaining to my boss that it won't work because there are too many variables, so unless we do it per item (dental treatment rooms cost x, 200A 3 Phase 42 Circuit panel costs y, etc.) I don't see how it will work. My boss keeps insisting we need a square foot formula to do preliminary estimates to give a bid to the dentist. Yeah, preliminary estimate. No working knowledge of the electrical system. No drawings. Pretty much nothing.

Does anybody have any ideas I can use to try and convince my boss that it won't work? He's already readjusting the numbers after every job to try and come up with a number. Unless we go high, I don't see how it will work.

 

[480sparky]

How much do the following cost per square foot?: Boxes, wire, breakers, devices.....

 

[360Youth]

Sqft pricing can work in residential on track homes and starter pricing for custom homes because you have a basic minimum that you know is going in. I have never tried or thought about trying sqft pricing for commercial because there very little to go on without a set of prints. To try and do so, IMO, is purely guess work.

 

[Jljohnson]

We work preliminary budget numbers for commercial and medical projects all the time. Typically on our design-build projects, the first budget is created from a sketch on a napkin from the local tavern so there isn't much info to work from other than type of occupancy. The ONLY reason that we are succesful at getting close on thes budgets is that the owner of the company has kept a database of projects, projected costs and actual, since he started this place 20 years ago. He works the budget by looking at similar projects and then adjusting for any known issues and whatever the current inflation pricing demands. Amazingly, he is very good at getting a budget number that is very close to what we end up bidding the job for after drawings are completed.

 

[Sparky555]

We work preliminary budget numbers for commercial and medical projects all the time. Typically on our design-build projects, the first budget is created from a sketch on a napkin from the local tavern so there isn't much info to work from other than type of occupancy. The ONLY reason that we are succesful at getting close on thes budgets is that the owner of the company has kept a database of projects, projected costs and actual, since he started this place 20 years ago. He works the budget by looking at similar projects and then adjusting for any known issues and whatever the current inflation pricing demands. Amazingly, he is very good at getting a budget number that is very close to what we end up bidding the job for after drawings are completed.

I think you're confusing square foot pricing with using historical data or actuals.

Dave

 

[benaround]

I think you're confusing square foot pricing with using historical data or actuals.

Dave

I think Sparky555 is saying that sq ft. pricing is a waste of time and that

historical data and shop records will get you in a reasonable ballpark.

With that said, there are companys like R M Means that try to give %'s of

total budget to the different trades, and for different types of work. But it's

not anything to bet the farm on.

 

[tyha]

we did a dentist offfice last year. 8 exam rooms. 2 treatment rooms. x -ray. nurses station and 4 offices. it was about 4200 sq ft and the bid price was about $94,000 so I would say about $22.5 a ft. I dont know what area you are in but if you are south of us then i would feel comfortable with that number if you are north or on the west coast than that number isn't worth the time it took me to open the filling cabinet.

 

[aline]

we did a dentist offfice last year. 8 exam rooms. 2 treatment rooms. x -ray. nurses station and 4 offices. it was about 4200 sq ft and the bid price was about $94,000 so I would say about $22.5 a ft. I dont know what area you are in but if you are south of us then i would feel comfortable with that number if you are north or on the west coast than that number isn't worth the time it took me to open the filling cabinet.

What if it's 4200 sq ft but with 4 exam rooms, 4 treatment rooms, 3 x-ray, 2 nurses stations and 2 offices?

 

[satcom]

How much do the following cost per square foot?: Boxes, wire, breakers, devices.....

Exactly, square foot pricing is designed for siding roofing, and material installed by the square, not for electrical work, Builders work in the square foot world, and don't allow there mind to think in any other terms, and then comes along a green electrician, that figures if everyone else is doing it, it must be the way.

 

[benaround]

DanZ,

I'll bet after chasing too many of these jobs with no results , your boss will

have to change his ways. IMO. He would be better off bidding work that is

already in the ' prints' stage, at least you know what you need and what has

to be done. If changes are made, you change your bid accordingly.

Another thing is sooner or later, after he does all the lay out on one of these

prelim jobs, his bid will be 'too high' and someone else will benefit from his

work. Well I hope it all works out for you and your boss, good luck !!!

 

[DanZ]

DanZ,

I'll bet after chasing too many of these jobs with no results , your boss will

have to change his ways. IMO. He would be better off bidding work that is

already in the ' prints' stage, at least you know what you need and what has

to be done. If changes are made, you change your bid accordingly.

Another thing is sooner or later, after he does all the lay out on one of these

prelim jobs, his bid will be 'too high' and someone else will benefit from his

work. Well I hope it all works out for you and your boss, good luck !!!

Hehe, we just got two more jobs today. We have several in the works already, too. My boss is working on getting a third new one. So, we have plenty of work. We would bid off of plans, but we're doing the plans, the full architectural set, and we can't start working on that until he gives the customer a quote...I'm still trying to figure out some formula to show him...something like x per treatment room, y per autoclave, etc. I think we could do offices, reception areas, waiting rooms by square foot (using different numbers for each area). That's the only way I see square foot electrical estimates working. There are just too many variables.

Thanks guys!

 

[tyha]

who said anything about them working? working for what? The purpose of a sq ft estimate is to give a general idea of the cost. that is what we use them for. if you are bidding work to contract with just sq ft than your a fool. if you think given someone a sq ft estimate as a budgeting tool is wrong then you are also a fool. we have picked up a many a jobs by giving a sq ft estimate and then when plans are drawn up doing a takeoff. not to mention the general contractors that call on us because we do stuff like that for thier clients.

 

[Mr. Bill]

I think you're confusing square foot pricing with using historical data or actuals.

Dave

Square foot pricing can only be created based on historical data. And when copper or some other material sky rockets in price then you have to tweek the square foot pricing number based on a guess until you have some new historical data to update your square foot pricing. This is the only way I can see developing a realistic number to use for estimating based on square feet.

As a design firm we're asked to give our fee based on the size of the building. "50,000 sf office building. Tell me your hours to do the design." If I don't then we don't get the job. I have to guess how complicated the design will be, assume we agree on what's included in the electrical design, how many meetings are going to be expected, will the owner or CM keep asking me to change the design to fit their budget, how much time will I need to spend defending my design by providing calculations and reference material, coordinating with the architect and mechanical engineer as they modify their plans, what new Codes will I need to review, will the inspector start asking for more data.

This industry is obsessed with square foot costs. I think that we all agree that they're flawed but what better system can anyone offer for doing estimates? And I don't know of anyone who's reputation is good enough to get all the work they need without having to give estimates. And these estimates are based on historical data. That's all the RSMeans book is which is great as a quick reference.

 

[480sparky]

I will start using square foot pricing when painters estimate by the pound, roofers use cubic inches, concrete gets sold by foot-candle, the HVAC gets figured using the Farhenheit scale, engineers charge by the degree, and dimensional lumber is sold by the hour. :wink:

 

[satcom]

I will start using square foot pricing when painters estimate by the pound, roofers use cubic inches, concrete gets sold by foot-candle, the HVAC gets figured using the Farhenheit scale, engineers charge by the degree, and dimensional lumber is sold by the hour. :wink:

Thank you, for making me smile today, i need that.

 

[masterinbama]

I personally estimate by the the pounds of copper divided by the pounds I lost multiplied by the obesity of the GC'S bank account.
As an aside when I get home this is what I turn on (even though I love the classic rock stuff)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNXlslzL8EY&feature=related

 

[bradleyelectric]

I estimate by the weight of the blueprints. It usually gets a smile when I take a roll of prints, bounce it up and down a little with a thoughtful look and then state it feels like about $93K.

 

[DanZ]

engineers charge by the degree, and dimensional lumber is sold by the hour. :wink:

Uhm...Engineer's can and do charge by the degree. If they only have a Master's, they can't charge as much as if they had a PhD...

Dimensional lumber can be sold by the hour...if labor to install it is included :grin:

 

[DanZ]

I estimate by the weight of the blueprints. It usually gets a smile when I take a roll of prints, bounce it up and down a little with a thoughtful look and then state it feels like about $93K.

I'm gonna have to remember that!:grin: :grin:

 

[peter d]

I'm gonna have to remember that!:grin: :grin:

Just remember that is takes years of training to be a good estimator by weight. It takes many reps of lifting a roll of prints to get good at determining the weight/price ratio.