Stab in receptacles now against code

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Dennis Alwon said:
How do you know this. It appears to me that many of these devices may have been installed properly but with constant movement they fail. Of course I have no proof of that either. Remember they stopped 12 awg from being used like that for some good reasons. If they were a good connection then 12 awg should also be fine. I am just not convinced it is all user error.
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I agree with Dennis. Back stabs fail because they cannot handle the constant heavy current that they are often subjected to. I find time and time again these failures show when the occupant is loading the circuit heavily with heaters or a lot of other devices. Lightly loaded I have not seen a problem.
 
Sierrasparky said:
I agree with Dennis. Back stabs fail because they cannot handle the constant heavy current that they are often subjected to. I find time and time again these failures show when the occupant is loading the circuit heavily with heaters or a lot of other devices. Lightly loaded I have not seen a problem.
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I have seen screw terminals fail under those conditions. I have seen wire nuts fail in those conditions.
 
iwire said:
I was being real, and sometimes a number of apprentices at a number of tables assembling 1000s of devices.


Then there are the prefab panels with home runs already cut in.
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Say you had an apprentice sit at a table and using solid wire install a 6" whip of 12 AWG black, white, green, under the screw terminals of a commercial 20 amp duplex and add a 3 or 4 port wago. How quick could you know trim out a building?
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Emphasis added by yours truly. You didn't mention anything about a factory setting in the post I was replying to where I implied surreality.
 
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iwire said:
:thumbsup:

Well of course. :cool:




Say you had an apprentice sit at a table and using solid wire install a 6" whip of 12 AWG black, white, green, under the screw terminals of a commercial 20 amp duplex and add a 3 or 4 port wago. How quick could you know trim out a building?
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An apprentice!? Our shop bought one of these nifty items to cut and strip the pigtails.

97_2462.jpg
 
These are the kinds of discussions where there is no winner. I always used solid wire and never cared for stranded, I always twisted when using a wire nut and I always prefered flex over MC cable, but used NMC whenever I could, I prefer a screwdriver over a cordless and I backstabbed thousands of receptacles and switches.

some of it is just personal preference.
 
I agree. There is no winner in this discussion. I will approve a back-stabbed device as sure as I will a screw terminal. And, yes, I have seen failures in both. Personal preference is for screw terminals but that is not saying that they will never fail.

Pete
 
iwire said:
I have seen screw terminals fail under those conditions. I have seen wire nuts fail in those conditions.
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Yes I have seen many different connections fail in my experience, However I never see a pre twisted wire nuts fail. I often see loose screws on side wired outlets shwing some issue see CU to AL connections fail. I can gurantee your project to fail if you backstab your outlets and people are plugging in portable heaters for entire winters. I am saying that brcause of my thirty years of service work as electrician and what I have personally seen.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
How do you know this. It appears to me that many of these devices may have been installed properly but with constant movement they fail. Of course I have no proof of that either. Remember they stopped 12 awg from being used like that for some good reasons. If they were a good connection then 12 awg should also be fine. I am just not convinced it is all user error.
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I don?t know this for a fact but I was told that the reason for the deletion of 12 AWG on back stab devices had something to do with aluminum wiring practices. The smallest aluminum conductor is 12 AWG.

I have seen many failures with aluminum both in the back stab and around the screw.

Does anyone know what the torque requirement is for devices?
Does anyone use a torque screwdriver?
At least no torqueing is required with the back stab.
 
jwelectric said:
I don?t know this for a fact but I was told that the reason for the deletion of 12 AWG on back stab devices had something to do with aluminum wiring practices. The smallest aluminum conductor is 12 AWG.
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If it is not a co/Al device what difference would that make?
 
Sierrasparky said:
I can gurantee your project to fail if you backstab your outlets and people are plugging in portable heaters for entire winters
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This is a ridiculous statement IMO.
Backstab recepts are UL listed and thus tested to their rated current. I would guess the large majority of failures come from human error such as not trimming enough insulation off, or pulling a receptacle out of the box after it was backstabbed w/o making sure the wires are reinserted fully when putting it back in.
 
iwire said:
Say you had an apprentice sit at a table and using solid wire install a 6" whip of 12 AWG black, white, green, under the screw terminals of a commercial 20 amp duplex and add a 3 or 4 port wago. How quick could you know trim out a building?
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Real fast. It just takes more labor overall. :)

Additionally, it is very convenient to have 10 receptacles in a box, and ten boxes in a case. These are easy to transport around town and around a job site, and the devices stay clean. Throw a couple hundred pretailed devices in a big box, and you double your trips from location to location since a trip is dedicated to just hauling receptacles in and out, attracting dust the whole way. A box breaking becomes quite the train wreck.

Should I keep going? :)
 
iwire said:
What is funny is it seems everyone is against them but yet we find them in the field often. They must install themselves.
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I guess John and I just work circles around everyone else. :D

Pay for a yugo, get a yugo, IMO. I see no difference between wagos and backstabbing, except wagos pull apart a lot easier. I think the biggest problem I've seen with all terminations is that people are scared to death to expose enough copper to get a solid splice regardless of the method employed.
 
EXPERIENCE!!!!

EXPERIENCE!!!!

Alot of arguements in this thread.

I can't argue with any of you.

I don't know who installed them or if it was properly.

I don't know what was plugged into them or for how long.

I'm not suggesting that you don't continue to backstab devices (properly of course).

The one thing that cannot be argued with is experience.

I don't know what year backstabbable devices came on the market, but keep in mind I live in an older part of this great electrified country of ours, so I get to service new, ancient and everything in between.

Granted, I never kept records, but in 22 years as an electrician, it has got to be at minimum 75% (trying to be kind) of the device failures I've encountered were backstabbed.

Just sayin, this has been my experience. There is no arguement with experience.

Enjoy the day!
 
Dennis Alwon said:
If it is not a co/Al device what difference would that make?
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Didn?t say it was the reason just that this is what I have been told.

On a side note, a lot of the aluminum wiring that I have worked on in my area over the past few years, and there are many here, the devices was back stabbed with aluminum wire size 12 on devices that were not cu/al marked. I am working with a friend that has aluminum wiring throughout his home and his devices are back stabbed with aluminum on devices that are not dual rated. After thirty plus years problems are starting.
Surprisingly his panel is clean and no sign of any damage anywhere.
 
mjf said:
.................................

Granted, I never kept records, but in 22 years as an electrician, it has got to be at minimum 75% (trying to be kind) of the device failures I've encountered were backstabbed.

Just sayin, this has been my experience. There is no arguement with experience.

Enjoy the day!
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I'll double your field experience and agree with your premise.
 
I was a young electrician back before backstabbing was introduced so we always used the screw connections on devices. Thus I have always been more comfortable continuing that practice. Since the backstabbing devices came about I have never been a fan (although I do very little installing any more).

I can appreciate the varying opinions and experiences with using them.

I look at it as a "surface area" contact issue. If you take a close look at backstabbing there is very little surface area contact between the wire and the device connection. In a properly terminated screw or clamp connection there is a much greater surface area of contact (provided they are tightened).

The higher the current through the connection the more important the surface area of the contact becomes.
 
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