Stackers

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bighills

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I failed inspection in NJ. because I ran stackers horizontly on a beam in the basement. I spaced them every three feet. Anybody know if this is ok to do? It does not say anything on the bag nor on 3M's website
 
Perhaps they are only investigated by the UL for cable positioning and have not been investigated for cable support? Best guess I have. The only UL file number I can find on the Stackers is where they were investigated for the Canadian market.

I found this investigative bulletin from 3M, in which they did temperature rise tests on horizontally and vertically arranged stackers full of cables. From that test, it would lead me to believe that they intend for you to sometimes use them for horizontal runs.

http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawebserver?66666UuZjcFSLXTtmX&tO8s6EVuQEcuZgVs6EVs6E666666--
 
Was it a derating issue or did the inspector not like them for horizontal cabling? As Jerm asked which article did you violate?
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
334.15(C) would not permit the use of stackers in this application.
Don
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Just curious...would the underside of a beam represent the same level of safety concern as the unprotected area between two joists? I think 334.15(C) applies to joists and not beams. :smile:
Would the OP's installation pass if the cables were stapled directly to the beam (using the beam as a running board)?
 
wbalsam1 said:
Just curious...would the underside of a beam represent the same level of safety concern as the unprotected area between two joists? I think 334.15(C) applies to joists and not beams. :smile:
Would the OP's installation pass if the cables were stapled directly to the beam (using the beam as a running board)?
Click to expand...


Beam or Joist...
I would qualify (just from construction experience, but I could be wrong), that the underside of a beam is the same as the underside of a joist...a beam is a large joist in this case. JMO

Don
If the stackers are used for support and securing on the side of the beam, not the underside, I do not see an issue with that type of installation... it would almost be like using briddle rings.
 
Pierre,
Don
If the stackers are used for support and securing on the side of the beam, not the underside, I do not see an issue with that type of installation... it would almost be like using briddle rings.
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I would see that as a violation of 334.15(A).
Don
 
I think both Don and Marc have good points.

Most of the "stacker" type products are only listed for positioning thus do not technically "secure" the cable.

Both 334.30 and 334.15 could be cited if the inspector has that interpretation.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
Pierre,

I would see that as a violation of 334.15(A).
Don
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So, in essence you are saying that stackers are not permitted at all.
If they are not permitted to be used in horizontal portions of construction due to them not conforming to (A), why should they be permitted in any type of installation?
 
bphgravity said:
I think both Don and Marc have good points.

Most of the "stacker" type products are only listed for positioning thus do not technically "secure" the cable.

Both 334.30 and 334.15 could be cited if the inspector has that interpretation.
Click to expand...



Where have you found that they "are only listed for positioning"?


Here is a qoute from 3M's website in regards to Stackers.
3M Cable Stackers SI-1

"It also addresses the 2002 NEC article 334.30 and the Canadian Electrical Code Part 1, Section 12-516".



We all know that some manufacturers do not always give us facts about their products that are "spot-on", but the sentence above is something to grab onto unless there is an authority that says otherwise.
 
Pierre C Belarge said:
Beam or Joist...
I would qualify (just from construction experience, but I could be wrong), that the underside of a beam is the same as the underside of a joist...a beam is a large joist in this case. JMO
Click to expand...
I'm thinking of the space between the bottomside of two joists. The intent of the code, it seems to me, requires a board raceway to provide a flat and continuous surface so as to provide mechanical protection for the cable, etc. I'm thinking of a yard sale type event in an unfinished basement where clothes might be hanging on NM cable that would be stapled at one floor joist and travel perpendicularly through the air unprotected to an adjacent floor joist. This condition would not be likely with romex stapled to the underside of a beam.
edited to clarify:In other words, I'm discussing joists where the NM runs perpendicular and beams where the NM runs parallel.
 
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Pierre,
So, in essence you are saying that stackers are not permitted at all.
Click to expand...
No, the section I cited only applies to exposed applications, they are suitable for concealed applications.
Don
 
bphgravity said:
I think both Don and Marc have good points.

Most of the "stacker" type products are only listed for positioning thus do not technically "secure" the cable.
Click to expand...

:confused: ...The stacker holds the NM cable closely following the building surface complying with 334.15(A), and when properly applied, secures the cable at intervals consistant with code requirements, namely every 4 1/2 feet, complying with 334.30. Travelling parallel on the underside of a beam or in the recesses between floor joists in this manner would not be a violation.
Travelling perpendicularly across angles at the lower portions of floor joists adjacent to one another without the benefit of a board raceway would be a misuse of stackers and a violation of 334.15(C). :smile:
 
Just check to see if they are listed under UL 2239. If so, they should be accepted. 334.30 does give some flexibility in allowing other types of supporting devices such as UL 1565 devices.
 
The stacker holds the NM cable closely following the building surface complying with 334.15(A), ...
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They hold the NM away from the framing member. In my opinion that is not closely following the building surface.
Don
 
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don_resqcapt19 said:
They hold the NM away from the framing member. In my opinion that is not closely following the building surface.
Don
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I really think you are "stretching" that requirement some. If you were to tell me that as an inspector, I would ask for a definition of "closely following the building surface". I think that is too subjective of an answer.

But... that is what subjective is all about isn't it.
 
bphgravity said:
Most of the "stacker" type products are only listed for positioning thus do not technically "secure" the cable.
Click to expand...
If this was the case, then stackers alone would not be able to be the last cabling hardware before a device box, such as the one pink and several white ones used here:

2boxesrear.jpg
 
LarryFine said:
If this was the case, then stackers alone would not be able to be the last cabling hardware before a device box,
Click to expand...

I think that is exactly what he was pointing out. :smile:

Caddy pipe clips have the same issue.....postioning only.
 
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