Starting a company without license

[LarryFine]

. . . like K&T allowed to remain.

In my opinion, there's nothing inherently wrong with K&T, if it hasn't been overloaded. In some ways, it's better than NM.

 

[hbiss]

In my opinion, there's nothing inherently wrong with K&T, if it hasn't been overloaded. In some ways, it's better than NM.

One receptacle per room and extension cords/power strips everywhere.

-Hal

 

[hbiss]

I just looked at the city of little falls building permit and they do have an electrical permit for $10. That's funny. I doubt there is one at the town or county level. I assume it's Third party inspection but I don't know for sure.

That's what I saw too, just a permit. I couldn't find any inspection authority though if you do some digging it seems they use some company out of MN to do all other inspections. No mention of electrical.

Inspections – Inspection Services

insp-services.com

-Hal

 

[Jerramundi]

I'm not sure I would want to, I imagine insurance liabity would be very high as the inspection agency would be taking on some of the liability of every electrician your inspector checks and validates. Third party inspection allows my premiums to be lower, as some of the liability is passed on.

You'd be surprised. Many of the municipalities around me have nice little explicit legal statements in their local amendments that put 100% of the liability on the EC. Simply put, if the inspector misses anything that I missed, it's 100% on me.

I've had many inspections, even on jobs where you would think they would be strict AF (e.g. a gymnasium where children will be playing)... and all the EI did was look around for 5 minutes, pass me, and be on his way. I had a scissor lift set up, ready to take him up and show him my splices, the works! Nope, a quick glance and he was out the door.

I actually support the idea of "third party verification" (e.g. permits, inspections - if done right and financially accessible). But with examples like the one I just gave, one can't help but wonder if permits are anything more than just "pay to play."

 

[electrofelon]

You'd be surprised. Many of the municipalities around me have nice little explicit legal statements in their local amendments that put 100% of the liability on the EC. Simply put, if the inspector misses anything that I missed, it's 100% on me.

But I assume those are government inspectors? Here it is a private inspection agency and yes they do take on liability. Actually often they are called "underwriters".

 

[Jerramundi]

Absolutley..im able to take the test i just need my w2s in order. I was working for a railroad for awhile andmostt cou ties wont accept that exp

I had the same problem initially with getting my W2's in order. I don't know how it is by you, but around here there's several villages that offer testing... and the one's that don't, just require a license from a municipality with a testing agency. So you can get your license in one municipality and register in the other ones.

That's what I did. I went to the ICC (International Code Council) website. Found an exam for Residential Electrician on the 2014 NEC, took the exam at a Pearson VUE professional testing center, passed the exam, took my pass letter to the village, and got my license. No W2 paper trail required.

Granted the down side to this is that people with little field experience, but significant knowledge of the NEC, can get licensed (and I will clarify for the record that I had 10 years field experience at the time of my examination, just not an organized paper trail)...

But the good thing is, it kind of helps those of us that made the mistake of going to work for a local electrician as a teenager, thinking you're getting all this experience, work your butt off, but then 10 years later want to utilize that experience in getting your own license and your $hit out of luck.

I wish I could tell every teenager going to work for an electrician right now to BE SURE they have a license and that you get documentation!

Maybe there's another municipality you can test in that doesn't require the W2's? Check out the ICC website.

 

[Jerramundi]

Exams - Credentialing

ICC Store

shop.iccsafe.org

It's changed a lot in the 5 years that I've been licensed. When I first signed up for the exam, nearly every state in the country was listed on the ICC website... I wonder why it's changed so much. I hope it's not because of a loss of credibility by the ICC or anything...

I know when I took the exam it was a professional exam. A cold room with a proctor watching your every move and you better not dare ask to use the restroom, haha.

 

[kwired]

I'm wondering:
1. If you advertised yourself as being licensed (in the areas not requiring a license) as a way to differentiate yourself from the unlicensed electricians?
2. How many potential clients called you because you were licensed and wanted an extra measure of safety?

In my experience, Lee Iacocca was right when he said "safety doesn't sell". My company puts forth a strong safety message and it rarely resonates with clients. On the quality/price spectrum, price shoppers could care less about safety. But I wonder if the right messaging could sway those quality shoppers toward your company. Perhaps something like: "Don't hire an unlicensed hack, when you can hire a licensed professional electrician."

I'd say that depends on who you are trying to sell to.

Most residential wiring projects, they have no clue what is safe and what is not safe. All those AFCI's and GFCI's just mean more cost to many of them clients. But they wont think twice about suing you if there is an injury, death or property damage potentially caused because you didn't follow codes.

Working for some commercial and industrial clients, safety might be very important as they may often be audited for safety issues by insurance, department of labor, OSHA, etc.

 

[kwired]

I just looked at the city of little falls building permit and they do have an electrical permit for $10. That's funny. I doubt there is one at the town or county level. I assume it's Third party inspection but I don't know for sure.

Probably separate fee from the third party inspector? Are these third party inspectors actual certified EI's in any way or just some other "electrical professional" that comes and checks the installation?

 

[Fred B]

Probably separate fee from the third party inspector? Are these third party inspectors actual certified EI's in any way or just some other "electrical professional" that comes and checks the installation?

The ones I've come across are Certified have to test and then have ceu every year to keep their licence up, usually have been licensed electricians that have retired.

 

[Eddie702]

Unless it has changed (I let my Vermont license go a few years ago) in Vermont you don't need a license to wire a dwelling.

As far as the inspectors go I don't think they take any of the liability.

MA was strict in the old days every city and tow is supposed to issue a paper permit. The law still says that as far as I know but many towns around here no longer issue a paper permit

 

[hbiss]

Probably separate fee from the third party inspector?

Should be easy to find out. Where I am now (Westchester), except for the cities, we have independent third party inspectors. You can find them via Google I'm sure. Not finding anything for those upstate areas.

-Hal

 

[Fred B]

Should be easy to find out. Where I am now (Westchester), except for the cities, we have independent third party inspectors. You can find them via Google I'm sure. Not finding anything for those upstate areas.

-Hal

Not sure of googling but the municipalities usually maintain a list of inspectors from a variety of companies if you don't know one. There are however a few municipalities that require or restrict who can be used. New Hartford and Utica are couple.

 

[electrofelon]

Should be easy to find out. Where I am now (Westchester), except for the cities, we have independent third party inspectors. You can find them via Google I'm sure. Not finding anything for those upstate areas.

-Hal

The two big inspection agencies are Commonwealth and MDIA. You can just call them and ask for their local office or inspectors. 1800 USE MDIA.

 

[hbiss]

Hmm, doing some searches on that information and it looks like National Grid (the POCO) maintains a list of inspection agencies by area.

https://www.nationalgridus.com/media/pronet/ny_inspectors_web_document.pdf

Question is are you required to have an inspection? I think as long as it's available I would want a certificate for me and the customer even if the municipality didn't. I'm willing to bet that the POCO want's a certificate for a new service before they will connect it.

Probably up until 40 years ago we didn't have licensing here for electricians and plumbers. Con Edison required an application with calculated load and an inspection certificate before they would connect a new or upgraded service. This was even if you did the job yourself which at least put the DIYers out of the new service business.

-Hal

 

[Fred B]

Hmm, doing some searches on that information and it looks like National Grid (the POCO) maintains a list of inspection agencies by area.

https://www.nationalgridus.com/media/pronet/ny_inspectors_web_document.pdf

Question is are you required to have an inspection? I think as long as it's available I would want a certificate for me and the customer even if the municipality didn't. I'm willing to bet that the POCO want's a certificate for a new service before they will connect it.

Probably up until 40 years ago we didn't have licensing here for electricians and plumbers. Con Edison required an application with calculated load and an inspection certificate before they would connect a new or upgraded service. This was even if you did the job yourself which at least put the DIYers out of the new service business.

-Hal

If permit is pulled, inspection required. POCO also requires for any work requiring disconnect - reconnect. Anything larger than just replacing a few fixtures, like new wiring add ons even if it doesn't need a permit I'll get inspection, it limits my liability and my insurance requires it (makes it cheaper).

 

[electrofelon]

Around here (otsego county) I never have nor ever would pull an electrical permit. I don't even think there is an electrical permit. If I called up county code enforcement and said I was running some new circuits to a kitchen, do I need a permit, I honestly don't even know what they would say. They would probably tell me to get it inspected that's all. I don't think they would even follow up with it. Building permits have electrical line item so if someone gets a building permit, they will want elec signed off.

Sometimes I get an inspection where there is no building permit, but usually not.

 

[Fred B]

Around here (otsego county) I never have nor ever would pull an electrical permit. I don't even think there is an electrical permit. If I called up county code enforcement and said I was running some new circuits to a kitchen, do I need a permit, I honestly don't even know what they would say. They would probably tell me to get it inspected that's all. I don't think they would even follow up with it. Building permits have electrical line item so if someone gets a building permit, they will want elec signed off.

Sometimes I get an inspection where there is no building permit, but usually not.

Otsego does have permits, if part of a remodel or addition electrical included on general permit, also have a permit for just electrical. It's just alot don't bother to pull one but if something goes wrong and no permit pulled they can give a hassle.

 

[Ricky Manresa]

I had the same problem initially with getting my W2's in order. I don't know how it is by you, but around here there's several villages that offer testing... and the one's that don't, just require a license from a municipality with a testing agency. So you can get your license in one municipality and register in the other ones.

That's what I did. I went to the ICC (International Code Council) website. Found an exam for Residential Electrician on the 2014 NEC, took the exam at a Pearson VUE professional testing center, passed the exam, took my pass letter to the village, and got my license. No W2 paper trail required.

Granted the down side to this is that people with little field experience, but significant knowledge of the NEC, can get licensed (and I will clarify for the record that I had 10 years field experience at the time of my examination, just not an organized paper trail)...

But the good thing is, it kind of helps those of us that made the mistake of going to work for a local electrician as a teenager, thinking you're getting all this experience, work your butt off, but then 10 years later want to utilize that experience in getting your own license and your $hit out of luck.

I wish I could tell every teenager going to work for an electrician right now to BE SURE they have a license and that you get documentation!

Maybe there's another municipality you can test in that doesn't require the W2's? Check out the ICC website.

Dude thank you so much fir that info!! Im checking right now!

 

[Jerramundi]

Dude thank you so much fir that info!! Im checking right now!

You're welcome. No body told me how to do it. I had to figure it all out on my own. It's shrouded in mystery here in IL., esp. Chicago, because we're a big union city. They don't want us independents to be able to figure it out. Working class solidarity my ass, lol.

If the union could assume 100% control of who was able to take an exam here they would. That's one reason I oppose them and chose the independent route. They think they own the rights to being an electrician and I think one should have the freedom to choose either the independent route or the union route.