Stetzier claims

[karl riley]

Ghostbuster, to install filters in a school without correcting the wiring errors causing net current fields is silly, as well as expensive.

I have reduced fields in many school buildings by locating the miswired circuits and having them corrected.

Karl

 

[tom baker]

This group in our area is targetting the local school boards.Apparently our children and teachers could be at a health risk due to this "dirty power".The cost to "clean-up" an entire school board of schools could be HUGE. I agree that hard scientific proof is required.Any thoughts.

Yes. Karl Riley did a study and video for Calif Dept of Education. Students were exposed to high levels of EMF due to wiring errors by electricians.
"We have met the enemy and they are us" Pogo

 

[brian john]

Karl: Then my original thoughts on this subject are correct, a properly wired circuit is not an issue, there is no evidence that "dirty power" what we in the trade call Power Quality Issues are not a health issue. So basically this product should be labled worthless, because if you are using this product to resolve net current issues, you are not solving the problem, only possible masking the issue.


I have read the site, looked at the links and wonder why?


Oh but for grins, I am going to purchase several and the meter.

 

[ghostbuster]

"dirty power filter"

"dirty power filter"

Karl

I agree net current could always be an issue in any building.However, if you review their literature and their testing of a single device,it would appear they are stripping away the 4-100 khz. line frequency components.The health claims are that these higher frequency components can more easily gain entry into a healthy body and "wreak havoc"....Side comment-I have reviewed the health canada report and feel it really missed a great testing opportunity .I was not impressed at all.

 

[karl riley]

My point is those higher frequencies are vastly amplified if the circuit has been miswired so that it has net current (usually neutral shunted to another path). Those frequencies were reduced more effectively by fixing the wiring than by installing the filter in the study I mentioned.

I think the practitioners of filter installation may know how to plug one in but probably not how to trace and correct the net current. Hence they have to ignore it.

But I am open to reading any legitimate health study conducted by scientists in the field.

Karl

 

[petersonra]

But I am open to reading any legitimate health study conducted by scientists in the field.

Are there any? From what I can tell, most of them are not really scientific studies so much as statistical studies, often performed by people with an agenda to further. Much like the global warming stuff.

 

[ghostbuster]

Health studies:
http://www.stetzerelectric.com/filters/research/

Some of the above studies in this link are suspect,but a few of them have been peer reviewed by I.E.E.E.


High frequency radiated magnetic fields:

We have measured the r.f. radiated fields for example from perfectly balanced(no net current) power cables feeding 25-50 hp VFD. drives.With r.f. shielded "drive rated cables" in the same application the radiated rf energy is substantially reduced.

Point#1
VFD "perfectly balanced cables" do radiate substantial r.f.energy into the surrounding area.

Point #2
This radiated energy can be substantially neutralized by using rf shielded power cables (this filter is not required)

Comments?

 

[karl riley]

The question is the amplitude of the radiated energy. I had an electrician/emf consultant who used to twist romex with his power drill to reduce the magnetic field. I pointed out to him two things: first, if the wiring was correct he was reducing a minute field to a more minute field (and charging his clients for all the time). Second, twisting has zero affect on net currents, which were the field-producing factor.

I also believe the filter people make the assumption that higher frequencies have penetrating effects on the body an d thus are worse than lower frequencies. No so until you get up to ultra0violet or X-ray frequencies (or maybe cell phones). The most damaging frequencies are around 8-10 Hz. Ask the non-lethal weapons guys.

About global warming, time to update one's opinion. No longer considered controversial by the legitimate scientific community. The politics is mostly on the other side. I think I heard Bush has capitulated to the evidence.

Karl

 

[KurtWG]

Yes, I would dearly love to see the adverse health of "dirty" electricity discounted and discredited.
I'm no expert but spent quite a while examining the results. Invariably, when levels are high and people have been exposed, their health suffers in a variety of ways. For example, even a short-term remediation improved the health of those suffering from chronic fatigue syndrome. The pilot study was conducted by a medical researcher but (oddly) never published. It should be relatively easy to design and conduct such a study.
You'd think there would be considerable interest, given some of the claims. There ain't. As long as it sticks to a theoretical discussion, you can argue that poor power can't possibly harm people and you'd be right as rain.
If anyone's interested, contact me and I'll send you some results of some research. It isn't the gold standard of medical research, but it's certainly interesting. You can conduct your own mini-experiment by leaving your dimmer switches slightly on for a week. The more the merrier. Let me know how you feel after a week or so.....

Kurt

 

[vramp7]

This sounds like a bunch of cow dung to me...

This sounds like a bunch of cow dung to me...

I go to the web site and look up Q & A that people have supposady asked. The one that gets me is the person bought 2 of these and they made a buzzing sound. So the answer was to buy of course M-More of these crazy things because 2 wasent enough. I think someone made this thing to buzz just so u would buy more! Sounds like another "by me I will make u better" scam....

 

[mikmhe]

Ghostbuster, to install filters in a school without correcting the wiring errors causing net current fields is silly, as well as expensive.

I have reduced fields in many school buildings by locating the miswired circuits and having them corrected.

Karl

Karl, what device do you recommend to measure the fields that the Steltzier filters are supposed to reduce?

I'm skeptical about buying the Steltzier meter as it may simply be a sales device.

 

[robbietan]

the world health organization has made some of the most definitive studies in this EMF-Health field. Too bad not too many people are reading it, could have saved them the hassle from buying products like these

 

[karl riley]

The WHO verified the connection between 4 mG fields and the doubling of childhood leukemia. This is power frequency. About higher frequencies (below cell phone frequencies) I haven't seen studies.

As to measuring the higher frequencies, one can use a sensor such as a MSI-95 connected to a frequency-reading multimeter or to an oscilloscope. MSI-95 available from magneticsciences.com (the only vendor).

I am suspicious when these frequencies are labeled "dirty power". That makes them automatically bad. It is a powerful image to give to lay people. The connection to childhood leukemia was to "clean power". So where does the dirt come in? It's a question of biological response to whatever magnetic fields are present.

Karl

 

[mikmhe]

The WHO verified the connection between 4 mG fields and the doubling of childhood leukemia. This is power frequency. About higher frequencies (below cell phone frequencies) I haven't seen studies.

As to measuring the higher frequencies, one can use a sensor such as a MSI-95 connected to a frequency-reading multimeter or to an oscilloscope. MSI-95 available from magneticsciences.com (the only vendor).

I am suspicious when these frequencies are labeled "dirty power". That makes them automatically bad. It is a powerful image to give to lay people. The connection to childhood leukemia was to "clean power". So where does the dirt come in? It's a question of biological response to whatever magnetic fields are present.

Karl

Sounds like it's necessary to buy the MSI-95 plus another device. Is the MSI-95 useful on its own (for the purpose of measuring what the Stetzer filters are supposed to suppress)?

 

[karl riley]

No, the MSI-95 does not measure (or act as a sensor for the oscilloscope) in the higher frequencies, so I take back that recommendation. However, connecting an oscilloscope (hand-held type) to a receptacle would show what was there.

The MSI-95 is made to measure power frequency magnetic fields up to 3kHz, though it will show higher frequencies at reduced amplitude.

The Stetzer meter probably gives a good summary of higher frequency components, though you cannot relate it to any known measurement since they have created their own. So I could see it being used in health studies, but those studies cannot have just a dozen participants or so to have any weight scientifically. The studies linking 4 mG of power frequencies and leukemia used thousands of participants.

I would like to see a study of the stetzer meter readings from receptacles before and after a 60Hz net current error was corrected. That should reduce not only the 60Hz mag field but also the higher frequencies.

I will keep looking into this, since I have a client who is suffering from electrosensitivity. The filters did not help her, but she felt bad effects from them.

Karl

 

[ghostbuster]

The research I have done so far on the Stetzer device would seem to indicate the primary frequencies attenuated are below 10 khz.

 

[karl riley]

I got interested and went to the Canadian Health Dept website and read the report done by the Canadian Radiation Protection dept on their tests of the Stetzer filter. I had read the criticisms of this report by Stetzer people. I did not find the criticisms valid, and indeed they distort what they criticize.

One point: with the filter plugged in, the frequencies the filter is designed to filter were such small amplitude as to be at the noise level of the oscilloscope. They are at least 1500 times less in amplitude of the 60Hz sine wave. They are in a frequency range that are not produced by radio, TV or cell, but in the range of marine radios and emergency signals.

The filters themselves are a 0.9A load and produce significant harmonics. This may be the reason that some clients have reported unpleasant sensations from the filters. If they were plugged into a line with net current these harmonics would be amplified.

The filters have no effect on magnetic fields, the prime suspect in health effects.

I think the report was very interesting reading: bccdc.org/content.php?.item=62

Karl

 

[ghostbuster]

Pollution at a 120 volt residential outlet


This is a spectrum analyzer picture of electrical noise on an outlet(with and without a cap filter).This picture was supplied by DR. Martin Graham (Graham-Stetzer,filters).It would appear the frequency range is from 5-100 Khz.I found this in one of M.H. links.

 

[karl riley]

I think the point is whether the reduction is from inconsequential to more inconsequencial, or from a level that is known to produce health effects to a level that is known not to produce health effects.

Take care with that word "pollution". It carries an emotional charge, and like any other negative characterization needs research to back it up. The informal studies I have seen listed would seem to call for some real double-blind scientific studies, but as they stand they do not warrant using these terms.

Karl