Stolen wire hypothetical

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Coppersmith

Coppersmith

Senior Member
Location
Tampa, FL, USA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
I'm in the process of re-wiring an entire house (open studs) in a not-so-nice neighborhood and I've been worried that somebody will break-in and steal the wire I just installed. Should that happen, who would be responsible? I'm hoping it's not me. I assume the owner has insurance.
 
Coppersmith said:
I'm in the process of re-wiring an entire house (open studs) in a not-so-nice neighborhood and I've been worried that somebody will break-in and steal the wire I just installed. Should that happen, who would be responsible? I'm hoping it's not me. I assume the owner has insurance.
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You should put in your contract that material is owners responsibility once delivered on site. I would think that once it is installed it is the owners anyway. I know we aren't allowed to remove material for non payment once installed!:happyno:
 
Owner is responsible for doing what's necessary to secure the site unless otherwise stated in the general conditions. This used to happen all the time when plumbers used copper pipe. Nobody wanted our wire.

-Hal
 
Coppersmith said:
I'm in the process of re-wiring an entire house (open studs) in a not-so-nice neighborhood and I've been worried that somebody will break-in and steal the wire I just installed. Should that happen, who would be responsible? I'm hoping it's not me. I assume the owner has insurance.
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I would not assume anything.

Legally I think it depends on when the owner takes title to the work done unless the contract states otherwise. Rather than getting legal advise from random people on the Internet you might want to just ask your lawyer. That is why you pay him. Just out of curiosity maybe you could tell us what he says about it.
 
petersonra said:
I would not assume anything.

Legally I think it depends on when the owner takes title to the work done unless the contract states otherwise. Rather than getting legal advise from random people on the Internet you might want to just ask your lawyer. That is why you pay him. Just out of curiosity maybe you could tell us what he says about it.
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Good points. We had a clause in our T&Cs that stated title to the goods would not pass to the customer until payment for them was received. I don't know if that would be permitted there and, TBH, never had a situation where we needed to test it.
 
I don't really like this as a blanket rule. It would only encourage carelessness. There are many unscrupulous people out there and bosses would start caring less about hiring scummiest workers with a long rap sheet if they're not on the hook for thefts.

How well would you look after stuff when you have nothing to lose if it is stolen?
 
petersonra said:
I would not assume anything.

Legally I think it depends on when the owner takes title to the work done unless the contract states otherwise. Rather than getting legal advise from random people on the Internet you might want to just ask your lawyer. That is why you pay him. Just out of curiosity maybe you could tell us what he says about it.
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I wish I could afford a lawyer. You know they charge twice as much per hour as Mr. Sparky. ;)
 
I had it written into my later contracts that any vandalism, theft, acts of God, etc, were not covered for replacement purposes... and that was for v/d/v wire that is pretty much worthless as scrap. Was more when one former boss pissed off another trade and then over the weekend, all his homeruns were found cut in the ceiling.

Dont P/O other trades. and use locked Conex boxes, because unopened spools/rolls of cable, unopened devices, unused firestop, etc. are ripe targets for theft.

Once it's installed, it's the customer's responsibility to secure it. I'm certainly not wasting the time to pull out 18 miles of already firestopped and terminated cable or to sabotage my own work. If I've installed that far, it's because I have been paid to do so. and if I haven't been paid, those materials sit on my truck, not on their site.
 
petersonra said:
Rather than getting legal advise from random people on the Internet you might want to just ask your lawyer.
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kwired said:
Why do you think he said:
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petersonra said:
Just out of curiosity maybe you could tell us what he says about it.
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Lol, thanks Kwired, I just noticed that.

Bob, If I told you what the lawyer said, would that not be heresay legal advice from a semi-random person on the internet? :) You wouldn't want to read that would you?:happyno:
 
Coppersmith said:
Lol, thanks Kwired, I just noticed that.

Bob, If I told you what the lawyer said, would that not be heresay legal advice from a semi-random person on the internet? :) You wouldn't want to read that would you?:happyno:
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He just wants you to pay for his legal advice:)
 
petersonra said:
I would not assume anything.

Legally I think it depends on when the owner takes title to the work done unless the contract states otherwise. ....
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Totally agree on getting legal advice, but it seems funny to me the EC would be responsible if installed material is stolen, yet if a customer doesn't pay, I wouldn't be allowed to repossess installed material. At least in GA anyway.


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Coppersmith said:
I'm in the process of re-wiring an entire house (open studs) in a not-so-nice neighborhood and I've been worried that somebody will break-in and steal the wire I just installed. Should that happen, who would be responsible? I'm hoping it's not me. I assume the owner has insurance.
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It depends on who you are working for. I wouldn't count on a realestate investor or flipper having insurance that would cover theft during construction.

If they do have an insurance policy you could call the company and see if this sort of thing is covered. They may need something extra to cover construction. Not all insurance covers what people would think it does.

You probably would want to cover this in the contract for future projects.

The best thing to do is wire it up fast and get a rough inspection and collect. Make sure the job site is secure while you are working there. Well as secure as possible.

Even if someone else is responsible for loss doesn't mean it will be easy to collect on damages.
 
Other than Ufers getting stolen, I only had one job where theft was an issue. Medical building that needed a service upgrade from a resi panel to commercial. We installed the first panel, feeders, and breakers. Called for next day inspection. Come back the next morning and feeders, breakers, grounding & bonding and buss - gone. Happened three times before we could get it hooked up to the POCO and energized. Customer paid for the replacement each time. Securing of a site and building are not a usual and customary feature of a trade.

I would expect that to be the responsibility of the GC or Site owner.
 
Chamuit said:
Other than Ufers getting stolen, I only had one job where theft was an issue. Medical building that needed a service upgrade from a resi panel to commercial. We installed the first panel, feeders, and breakers. Called for next day inspection. Come back the next morning and feeders, breakers, grounding & bonding and buss - gone. Happened three times before we could get it hooked up to the POCO and energized. Customer paid for the replacement each time. Securing of a site and building are not a usual and customary feature of a trade.

I would expect that to be the responsibility of the GC or Site owner.
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If one of those jobs where you only have access during business hours (as in you don't even have key to gain access if owner or GC doesn't let you in) then it is easier to prove you have little control over security of the site.
 
Chamuit said:
Securing of a site and building are not a usual and customary feature of a trade.

I would expect that to be the responsibility of the GC or Site owner.
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kwired said:
If one of those jobs where you only have access during business hours (as in you don't even have key to gain access if owner or GC doesn't let you in) then it is easier to prove you have little control over security of the site.
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Sure, when you rewire a house where it's gutted out and no one living there they often just toss you the keys and there may not even be other trades working on the job.

If there is going to be any security it's up to you to make sure things are locked up as well as possible. I try to get power on as soon as possible and leave a few lights on at night. Put a lock on the disconnect. If they think everything is energized they are less likely to steal.
 
growler said:
Sure, when you rewire a house where it's gutted out and no one living there they often just toss you the keys and there may not even be other trades working on the job.

If there is going to be any security it's up to you to make sure things are locked up as well as possible. I try to get power on as soon as possible and leave a few lights on at night. Put a lock on the disconnect. If they think everything is energized they are less likely to steal.
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It has an outside panel, all the cables will go from the eaves, down the outside wall, and then into stovepipe risers on top of the panel. We have been keeping all the cable inside until we are ready to make up the entire panel, cover the cables with sheet metal, and then lock the cabinet so the wire can't be ripped out. The J-man I have working the job said we should also put a big "HOT" sticker on the panel door.
 
Coppersmith said:
I'm in the process of re-wiring an entire house (open studs) in a not-so-nice neighborhood and I've been worried that somebody will break-in and steal the wire I just installed. Should that happen, who would be responsible? I'm hoping it's not me. I assume the owner has insurance.
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In CA, a contractor can legally collect ten percent of the contract price from the homeowner upon signing the contract. This is so the contractor is protected in this scenario.

Once the material is delivered or installed in the premises, it becomes under the watch of the homeowner. . . it legally becomes the property of the homeowner by virtue of the ten percent “down payment” received.

If the incident is contested by the homeowner, there is a law that protects contractor called mechanics lien law.
Further belligerence on the part of the homeowner, could force the contractor to file a lien against the property which homeowners and insurance companies don't want to hear.
 
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