Stranded vs. Solid
- Thread starter kfenn
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G
Guest
Guest
Re: Stranded vs. Solid
It's a close call if you are working at low frequencies. It also depends on what you are moving.
If you are moving line-voltage at 60Hz solid has a slight edge over stranded when it comes to impedance. Stranded has slightly more impedance than solid at low-frequencies.
As the frequency increases the attenuation of stranded increases and therefore stranded can be a stopper.
The two main advantages of stranded are:
1. Increased flexibility.
2. Not as prone to failure from a nick or failure from metal fatigue.
Please provide more details of your situation if you require a less generic answer.
It's a close call if you are working at low frequencies. It also depends on what you are moving.
If you are moving line-voltage at 60Hz solid has a slight edge over stranded when it comes to impedance. Stranded has slightly more impedance than solid at low-frequencies.
As the frequency increases the attenuation of stranded increases and therefore stranded can be a stopper.
The two main advantages of stranded are:
1. Increased flexibility.
2. Not as prone to failure from a nick or failure from metal fatigue.
Please provide more details of your situation if you require a less generic answer.
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Stranded vs. Solid
Why does your company call out #10 solid?
Why does your company call out #10 solid?
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: Stranded vs. Solid
kfenn,
If I'm bidding a job where I have to use #10 solid, I'll will have a higher price that if I can use stranded. I would use a labor factor of 30 to 40% higher to install the solid wire.
Don
kfenn,
If I'm bidding a job where I have to use #10 solid, I'll will have a higher price that if I can use stranded. I would use a labor factor of 30 to 40% higher to install the solid wire.
Don
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Stranded vs. Solid
The shop I work for bids many projects by sq. ft. I doubt the estimators take solid or stranded into the picture.
Why?
The shop I work for bids many projects by sq. ft. I doubt the estimators take solid or stranded into the picture.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: Stranded vs. Solid
Bob,
In my opinion #10 solid takes that much more labor than #10 stranded. I haven't seen a piece of #10 solid on a job site in the last 20 years. #12, yes and for commercial jobs, my labor would be lower for #12 solid than for stranded because many runs in commercial jobs are short enough to be pushed using #12 solid.
Don
Bob,
In my opinion #10 solid takes that much more labor than #10 stranded. I haven't seen a piece of #10 solid on a job site in the last 20 years. #12, yes and for commercial jobs, my labor would be lower for #12 solid than for stranded because many runs in commercial jobs are short enough to be pushed using #12 solid.
Don
ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: Stranded vs. Solid
In my opinion, the only thing that solid #10 is good for is tying a ladder to your truck.
I'm with Don on this one.
In my opinion, the only thing that solid #10 is good for is tying a ladder to your truck.
I'm with Don on this one.
frenchelectrican
Senior Member
- Location
- Nord'est Wisconsin et Paris France
Re: Stranded vs. Solid
myself i am not very strong fan with #10 solid wires because no matter what device it end up it always be pain in the rear bumper when try to put the devices on and push it back in oversized box.
i have seen some worse than that something that the inspecters will have field day
of course i have to bump my rate more with large conducters espcally with #10 or larger solid wires
merci , marc
myself i am not very strong fan with #10 solid wires because no matter what device it end up it always be pain in the rear bumper when try to put the devices on and push it back in oversized box.
i have seen some worse than that something that the inspecters will have field day
of course i have to bump my rate more with large conducters espcally with #10 or larger solid wires
merci , marc
Re: Stranded vs. Solid
I recently had a small job that spec'd #10 solid. Called the engineer and had it changed w/o too much hassle.
To me, the potential damage to solid simply from pulling it in, in no way offsets the minor difficulties in terminating stranded. The only solid wire I'll buy comes in NM cable.
I recently had a small job that spec'd #10 solid. Called the engineer and had it changed w/o too much hassle.
To me, the potential damage to solid simply from pulling it in, in no way offsets the minor difficulties in terminating stranded. The only solid wire I'll buy comes in NM cable.
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: Stranded vs. Solid
Marc
I like the 'rear bumper' comment of pulling both solid and stranded. 10 solid is a royal pain for longer pulls and IMO definitely has a much greater chance of kinking, getting hung up, etc...
Is the cost difference of the spool of stranded so much different from the cost of solid? ... I just looked it up in the Grainger catelog, solid 10 is $46 and stranded 10 is $50. That is only an 8% difference. The labor would seem to me to be more of a financial consideration.
Pierre
Marc
I like the 'rear bumper' comment
of pulling both solid and stranded. 10 solid is a royal pain for longer pulls and IMO definitely has a much greater chance of kinking, getting hung up, etc...Is the cost difference of the spool of stranded so much different from the cost of solid? ... I just looked it up in the Grainger catelog, solid 10 is $46 and stranded 10 is $50. That is only an 8% difference. The labor would seem to me to be more of a financial consideration.
Pierre
- Location
- Bremerton, Washington
- Occupation
- Master Electrician
Re: Stranded vs. Solid
I have locations where we have had to pull out the old solid wire after being in place for a number of years. Copper wire will self anneal over time and become hard, thats why some specs call for new wire, not over 1 year old. Stranded is a bit harder to mangage on a pull, there is a company who makes plastic spool covers that keep the stranded from jumping off the spool, I haven't tried them yet.
We went thru our stock and pulled all the solid wire and gave it to the water service guys they use it for tracer wire with service lines.
I have locations where we have had to pull out the old solid wire after being in place for a number of years. Copper wire will self anneal over time and become hard, thats why some specs call for new wire, not over 1 year old. Stranded is a bit harder to mangage on a pull, there is a company who makes plastic spool covers that keep the stranded from jumping off the spool, I haven't tried them yet.
We went thru our stock and pulled all the solid wire and gave it to the water service guys they use it for tracer wire with service lines.
frenchelectrican
Senior Member
- Location
- Nord'est Wisconsin et Paris France
Re: Stranded vs. Solid
thank you pierre
I did check my suppy centre and the cost is very small diffrance.
IMO ,,, in long run that what the troble start with wire get twisted or kinked or "rat nest" in some spot . really genrally i try to stay away from #10 soild expect for NM-B romax's in few place i can use it.
p.s. this moring i have crazy service call and i saw one box it was handi box yeah !! small handi box with 10-3 with 30 amp twistlock repectcale device. i am shocked how someone can jammed that tight without blowing the breaker,, and i got the box fixed using the correct size box and cover for it ( it was overheating on the repeticale device )
short run with #10 solid is ok for most place but majorty of time i use # 10 soild is primarlly for green wire (grounding )
labor wise i have to charge extra because there are some diffuctally for long run ( 300 ft and plus) and have to test the solid wire make sure itis not nicked during the pulling run
merci , marc
thank you pierre
I did check my suppy centre and the cost is very small diffrance.
IMO ,,, in long run that what the troble start with wire get twisted or kinked or "rat nest" in some spot . really genrally i try to stay away from #10 soild expect for NM-B romax's in few place i can use it.
p.s. this moring i have crazy service call and i saw one box it was handi box yeah !! small handi box with 10-3 with 30 amp twistlock repectcale device. i am shocked how someone can jammed that tight without blowing the breaker,, and i got the box fixed using the correct size box and cover for it ( it was overheating on the repeticale device )
short run with #10 solid is ok for most place but majorty of time i use # 10 soild is primarlly for green wire (grounding )
labor wise i have to charge extra because there are some diffuctally for long run ( 300 ft and plus) and have to test the solid wire make sure itis not nicked during the pulling run
merci , marc
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Stranded vs. Solid
Maybe it is just a learning curve on how to work with it, this is not a slam at anyone.
More power to any of you that can get more money to install solid, I do not believe we can in this market.
Don't get me wrong I would rather run stranded, I just do not get the choice and I could not tell my project manager that the job is running slow due to the use of solid wire, I would be replaced. :roll:
I would say that is where I am coming from too, although I would say for us about 50% of the jobs want solid.
Maybe it is just a learning curve on how to work with it, this is not a slam at anyone.
More power to any of you that can get more money to install solid,
I do not believe we can in this market.Don't get me wrong I would rather run stranded, I just do not get the choice and I could not tell my project manager that the job is running slow due to the use of solid wire, I would be replaced. :roll:
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: Stranded vs. Solid
What possible objection could the designer have to the use of stranded? I guess I'd just have to bid the jobs taking exception to the requirement to use soild #10. If the owner/designer does not accept my exeption to the specs, then they can give the job to someone else. I cannot believe that the installation of solid does not actually cost more the the same installation using stranded.
Bob,
Have you ever asked the project manager if you could try stranded on a job? I think that the profit on the job would be greater using stranded #10.
Don
What possible objection could the designer have to the use of stranded? I guess I'd just have to bid the jobs taking exception to the requirement to use soild #10. If the owner/designer does not accept my exeption to the specs, then they can give the job to someone else. I cannot believe that the installation of solid does not actually cost more the the same installation using stranded.
Bob,
Have you ever asked the project manager if you could try stranded on a job? I think that the profit on the job would be greater using stranded #10.
Don
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Stranded vs. Solid
Yes they can ask for permission to deviate from the specs but deviations usually result in a credit back to the customer so that would be frowned on.
Having worked with both quite a bit I do not find it that much worse.
All our fire alarm work is with solid although 12 awg is the largest I can remember using for this.
8 solid 12s on a horn strobe is a bit difficult to push into the box with out breaking the terminal board.
It is not that anyone from my office wants to run stranded but the PM has to follow the specs that the higher ups have signed to.
Yes they can ask for permission to deviate from the specs but deviations usually result in a credit back to the customer so that would be frowned on.
Having worked with both quite a bit I do not find it that much worse.
All our fire alarm work is with solid although 12 awg is the largest I can remember using for this.
8 solid 12s on a horn strobe is a bit difficult to push into the box with out breaking the terminal board.
Re: Stranded vs. Solid
Exactly why we don't even go there. You have to have a reason to deviate from the specs and the only real reason to ask to use stranded is that it is easier. That would surely result in a credit. And when giving credits after bid time they have to be given at change order rates when the wire was taken off at bid rates. This usually is not a profitable situation.
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