peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
Re: Strapping of EMT
Why is that, Bob? Is MA "special" for some reason?
Strapping of EMT
- Thread starter larrynixon
- Start date
- Status
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Strapping of EMT
Something i was taught 22 years ago has stuck with me.You might win the battle but lose the war.
Most employers have the same goal.They want the job done correctly and at a profit.They also want to keep a satisfied customer and happy employies.In doing this it works out best to be friends with all involved and that includes the inspector.So before you go over the inspectors head think it out.Very few won't back up there ruling without using code.Should you elect to take the ahj to court be sure you are ready for what can and will happen in the future.They will be very carefull in there next inspection of your work.Is your work flaless? Miss so much as 1 nail plate or strap,or perhaps 1 locknut or set screw not tight,or 190 degree in bends,or backs off 1 wire nut to see if the wires are twisted enough (not saying were pretwisted just that they all ended up twisted)and he will write your red tag and you can't win that one.Yes sometimes an inspector sees it differant than you.Simply ask him where he finds the code to say your wrong.I have had them back down a few times.Red tags slow jobs down and could cost the builder money by messing up his shedule.
Being a crew leader is about getting the job done at a profit and without conflicts that involve him unless they are major.We pass 95% of the time.But it is your option to fight with inspectors if you think thats winning :roll:
Something i was taught 22 years ago has stuck with me.You might win the battle but lose the war.
Most employers have the same goal.They want the job done correctly and at a profit.They also want to keep a satisfied customer and happy employies.In doing this it works out best to be friends with all involved and that includes the inspector.So before you go over the inspectors head think it out.Very few won't back up there ruling without using code.Should you elect to take the ahj to court be sure you are ready for what can and will happen in the future.They will be very carefull in there next inspection of your work.Is your work flaless? Miss so much as 1 nail plate or strap,or perhaps 1 locknut or set screw not tight,or 190 degree in bends,or backs off 1 wire nut to see if the wires are twisted enough (not saying were pretwisted just that they all ended up twisted)and he will write your red tag and you can't win that one.Yes sometimes an inspector sees it differant than you.Simply ask him where he finds the code to say your wrong.I have had them back down a few times.Red tags slow jobs down and could cost the builder money by messing up his shedule.
Being a crew leader is about getting the job done at a profit and without conflicts that involve him unless they are major.We pass 95% of the time.But it is your option to fight with inspectors if you think thats winning :roll:
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Strapping of EMT
Peter you can see the table we use in the back of your 2002 NEC. Table B.310.11
Don tells me that was the table the NEC used to use, apparently when the NEC changed we did not.
Bob
LOLOriginally posted by peter d:
Why is that, Bob? Is MA "special" for some reason?
Peter you can see the table we use in the back of your 2002 NEC. Table B.310.11
Don tells me that was the table the NEC used to use, apparently when the NEC changed we did not.
Bob
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2023
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: Strapping of EMT
JW, A prime example of the NEC vs. AHJ rears it's head in Cheyenne, Wyoming. The powers that be in Cheyenne believe that cable ties are not to be used to secure NM cable. They have put it on the books in the City of Cheyenne. If you look at 334.30, you will find that the fine folks at the NFPA actually included "cable ties" in the text. That's a pretty strong endorsement. In addition, cable ties are sold by the case here in Colorado, and are listed to do the job.
The City of Cheyenne has every right to thumb their nose at all of this, and ban cable ties. They have. I hate it, it drives me nuts, but the AHJ has spoken, and the only way to change it is to fight city hall. Appealing to the NFPA would be an impotent jesture, as they have already expressed their opinion on the matter. In Cheyenne, Cheyenne rules.
If you look in chapter 250, you will find many references to ground rods. In Cheyenne, they have decided to ban those on residential housing as well, because the ground is so hard in that region that everybody was hacking their rods off short of 8'. It's very reasonable for a local jurisdiction to have that power. They know their region, they know what goes on. The good folks at the NFPA understand that, and that's why they operate the way they do.
Charlie I put to you a question for illustrating my point: What's the budget for inspections at the NFPA? How much money does the NFPA put into the enforcement of code mentioned in 90.4? How much time do you spend performing inspections in your role on CMP 10?
JW, A prime example of the NEC vs. AHJ rears it's head in Cheyenne, Wyoming. The powers that be in Cheyenne believe that cable ties are not to be used to secure NM cable. They have put it on the books in the City of Cheyenne. If you look at 334.30, you will find that the fine folks at the NFPA actually included "cable ties" in the text. That's a pretty strong endorsement. In addition, cable ties are sold by the case here in Colorado, and are listed to do the job.
The City of Cheyenne has every right to thumb their nose at all of this, and ban cable ties. They have. I hate it, it drives me nuts, but the AHJ has spoken, and the only way to change it is to fight city hall. Appealing to the NFPA would be an impotent jesture, as they have already expressed their opinion on the matter. In Cheyenne, Cheyenne rules.
If you look in chapter 250, you will find many references to ground rods. In Cheyenne, they have decided to ban those on residential housing as well, because the ground is so hard in that region that everybody was hacking their rods off short of 8'. It's very reasonable for a local jurisdiction to have that power. They know their region, they know what goes on. The good folks at the NFPA understand that, and that's why they operate the way they do.
Charlie I put to you a question for illustrating my point: What's the budget for inspections at the NFPA? How much money does the NFPA put into the enforcement of code mentioned in 90.4? How much time do you spend performing inspections in your role on CMP 10?
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: Strapping of EMT
George,
Don
George,
The NFPA can never enforce the code. That is the responsibility of the unit of government that has adopted the code and made it law.
Don
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: Strapping of EMT
Peter check the profile of those who are disagreeing with me. Yes I can clearly see who participates in this forum. I also know who I am and where I stand, do you?
George the NFPA is the finial AHJ and there is a procedure that must be followed in order to appeal to them.
This is out of the NEC hand book 90.4 ?Some localities do not adopt the NEC, but even in those localities, installations that comply with the current Code are prima facie evidence that the electrical installation is safe?. This does not say that one person has the right to determine if something meets their requirement.
Iwire as you just said it is the people who adopted the code that is the finial AHJ in that state. Not one individual. There is always a higher AHJ than state.
Any jurisdiction that has adopted the NEC, unless they have amended, would have to accept tie wire as a means to support EMT as outlined by 358.30 unless you are saying that the inspector has a right to rewrite the code book based on 110.2 or 90.4.
This being said, whether you agree of disagree is up to you. I stand by everything I have stated through this thread.
Peter check the profile of those who are disagreeing with me. Yes I can clearly see who participates in this forum. I also know who I am and where I stand, do you?
George the NFPA is the finial AHJ and there is a procedure that must be followed in order to appeal to them.
This is out of the NEC hand book 90.4 ?Some localities do not adopt the NEC, but even in those localities, installations that comply with the current Code are prima facie evidence that the electrical installation is safe?. This does not say that one person has the right to determine if something meets their requirement.
Iwire as you just said it is the people who adopted the code that is the finial AHJ in that state. Not one individual. There is always a higher AHJ than state.
Any jurisdiction that has adopted the NEC, unless they have amended, would have to accept tie wire as a means to support EMT as outlined by 358.30 unless you are saying that the inspector has a right to rewrite the code book based on 110.2 or 90.4.
This being said, whether you agree of disagree is up to you. I stand by everything I have stated through this thread.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: Strapping of EMT
Bob,
Don
Bob,
I don't think that I agree with this. I think that in all cases where the code has been adopted by a unit of government, that the unit of government is always the final AHJ. This is not to say that the AHJ cannot give wide authority to their inspector(s) nor to say that the courts cannot over rule the AHJ.
Don
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Strapping of EMT
You can keep your head in the sand and stand by your incorrect statements or you can open your mind and learn.
Bob
Sorry that is incorrect the State of MA does not answer to the NFPA.
You can keep your head in the sand and stand by your incorrect statements or you can open your mind and learn.
Bob
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Strapping of EMT
Would you agree that the NFPA or an NTL is not the AHJ?
Bob
Don I would agree with that.
Would you agree that the NFPA or an NTL is not the AHJ?
Bob
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Strapping of EMT
JW i do agree they must put it writing as an ammendment.I assumed that was understood in the beginning.So if they think tie wire is a problem then they can reject it.Personally i still stand that it is a fine method.No the inspector could not makes up rules as he goes.I worked for my first 15 years in Collier County FL. and they had several ammendments but all in writing so we just accepted them and figured them into the price.
JW i do agree they must put it writing as an ammendment.I assumed that was understood in the beginning.So if they think tie wire is a problem then they can reject it.Personally i still stand that it is a fine method.No the inspector could not makes up rules as he goes.I worked for my first 15 years in Collier County FL. and they had several ammendments but all in writing so we just accepted them and figured them into the price.
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Strapping of EMT
If a state chose to do so they could write there own entire code book and reject nec.Far easier to just ammend it .
If a state chose to do so they could write there own entire code book and reject nec.Far easier to just ammend it .
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2023
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: Strapping of EMT
The NFPA has no teeth. They are a code writing entity that serves to throw a document out there that governmental and other entities can adopt if they feel so inclined. It is an educated, researched document that can be trusted to ensure a safe means to an end.
Since the NEC exists, and is so widely adopted, it takes the strain off local jurisdictions to define standards for installations of electrical equipment. Can you imagine the chaos if every town had to start from scratch and write their own code?
Since the NEC is so widely adopted, it gives electricians a level platform to conform to. We can point to a standardized document so that I, in Colorado, can discuss installations with Bob, in Mass., and not be hindered by wildly different rules.
By accepting proposals, the NFPA takes suggestions on changes to the NEC. This is one means by which to make a change on a local level, because I think we'd all agree that we're not smarter than the impressive collection of individuals on the various code making panels. Thus, if something is explicitly permitted in the NEC, then that should give a local jurisdiction a moment of pause before amending code. Hopefully local powers put the proper perspective into amending code on a local level. I think that often they do, hence there are a lot more additions than deletions at a local level, from what I've seen.
It's up to the governed to keep checks and balances in place.
I would like to see a proposal to chapter 90 that amendments on the local level must be available via internet. Good luck with that one though.
[ January 02, 2005, 01:12 PM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
Precisely.
The NFPA has no teeth. They are a code writing entity that serves to throw a document out there that governmental and other entities can adopt if they feel so inclined. It is an educated, researched document that can be trusted to ensure a safe means to an end.
Since the NEC exists, and is so widely adopted, it takes the strain off local jurisdictions to define standards for installations of electrical equipment. Can you imagine the chaos if every town had to start from scratch and write their own code?
Since the NEC is so widely adopted, it gives electricians a level platform to conform to. We can point to a standardized document so that I, in Colorado, can discuss installations with Bob, in Mass., and not be hindered by wildly different rules.
If the quaint little hamlet of Berthoud, CO, held a town meeting where it was discussed, voted on and approved that the lone position of Electrical Inspector will have final say in all electrical installations, without appeal, that is law. John Q. Inspector is now the AHJ in Berthoud, period. You elected a mayor, etc., who has signed this into law. Law is backed up by police with guns. There are teeth in local code.
By placing the NFPA above the local jurisdiction, you are flatly stating that the local jurisdiction is not the final word. Why would they bother amending the NEC for their jurisdiction if it can be easily overridden by the NFPA?
By accepting proposals, the NFPA takes suggestions on changes to the NEC. This is one means by which to make a change on a local level, because I think we'd all agree that we're not smarter than the impressive collection of individuals on the various code making panels. Thus, if something is explicitly permitted in the NEC, then that should give a local jurisdiction a moment of pause before amending code. Hopefully local powers put the proper perspective into amending code on a local level. I think that often they do, hence there are a lot more additions than deletions at a local level, from what I've seen.
Way easier, hence the appeal.
It's much less headache for the inspector and the electrician both if it's in writing. But trying to write code against every single variation of something is a cumbersome idea. I'm not so down on keeping 110.2 and 110.12 on the books for those kind of circumstances. An AHJ should be elected or hired for their common sense, too. A level headed AHJ can be trusted to apply 110.2 and 110.12 at their discretion, I'd hope.
It's up to the governed to keep checks and balances in place.I would like to see a proposal to chapter 90 that amendments on the local level must be available via internet.
Good luck with that one though. [ January 02, 2005, 01:12 PM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: Strapping of EMT
jwelectric,
Don
jwelectric,
I don't agree. The NFPA has no authority to force a unit of government to comply or accept anything. As I said earlier, after you have exhausted what ever appeal process that is provided for in the enabling legislation, you can turn to the courts. If you have enough time and money the final AHJ is the Supreme Court of the United States (if they would agree to hear the case)
Don
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: Strapping of EMT
George,
Don
George,
No, that law would be struck down as unconstitutional.
Don
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- Semi-retired engineer
Re: Strapping of EMT
I doubt it would be struck down as unconstitutional, but its probably way outside the authority the state has granted to the town.
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: Strapping of EMT
http://www.ci.berthoud.co.us/code/Chapter1.pdf
30-1-107 SEVERABILITY
Should any section or provision of this Code be
declared by the courts to unconstitutional or invalid,such decision shall not affect the validity of this Code as a whole or any part thereof, other than the part so declared to be unconstitutional or invalid.
Got my head out of the sand and I never make a statement I can't back up.
If you are NFPA member you ca request a Technical Document Interpretation. Just call 1 617 770-3000 and be prepared to provide your membership number, the NFPA document, edition date, and your technical question. This interpretation is what the inspector will have to go by if he is using the NEC.
How do I get this sand out of my ears?
http://www.ci.berthoud.co.us/code/Chapter1.pdf
30-1-107 SEVERABILITY
Should any section or provision of this Code be
declared by the courts to unconstitutional or invalid,such decision shall not affect the validity of this Code as a whole or any part thereof, other than the part so declared to be unconstitutional or invalid.
Got my head out of the sand and I never make a statement I can't back up.
If you are NFPA member you ca request a Technical Document Interpretation. Just call 1 617 770-3000 and be prepared to provide your membership number, the NFPA document, edition date, and your technical question. This interpretation is what the inspector will have to go by if he is using the NEC.
How do I get this sand out of my ears?
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Strapping of EMT
JW I could get an official interpretation form the NFPA if I wanted to, I do not need to be an NFPA member to do so.
Then when I take it to my MA inspector he can laugh at me for wasting my time.
[ January 02, 2005, 05:40 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
JW I could get an official interpretation form the NFPA if I wanted to, I do not need to be an NFPA member to do so.
Then when I take it to my MA inspector he can laugh at me for wasting my time.
[ January 02, 2005, 05:40 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2023
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: Strapping of EMT
I can't believe you pulled the Berthoud building code out. That's hilarious. That code is probably bigger than the town!
Don & Bob Peterson, you're probably right. My end point is, that code voted into law becomes law, and as a result, becomes enforceable by the local government, courts, etc. NFPA doesn't care.
JW, just because the NFPA generates a ruling on a question, that's just evidence. That's saying "These 500 smart people just said I'm right, and John Q. Inspector is wrong." A court would view that as very pertinent information. The NFPA statement isn't necessarily the law.
But now I'm just having fun with semantics.
[ January 02, 2005, 05:30 PM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
I can't believe you pulled the Berthoud building code out. That's hilarious.
That code is probably bigger than the town! Don & Bob Peterson, you're probably right. My end point is, that code voted into law becomes law, and as a result, becomes enforceable by the local government, courts, etc. NFPA doesn't care.
JW, just because the NFPA generates a ruling on a question, that's just evidence. That's saying "These 500 smart people just said I'm right, and John Q. Inspector is wrong." A court would view that as very pertinent information. The NFPA statement isn't necessarily the law.
No, but if he don't, he's declaring he's smarter than the NFPA, and he'd better have something more persuasive to back his ruling, or tuck tail and run!
But now I'm just having fun with semantics.
[ January 02, 2005, 05:30 PM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Strapping of EMT
There is also this.
The authority enforcing the Code is not the NFPA.
My only real point is that each area handles the NEC differently.
There is also this.
Notice that section gives the authority enforcing the Code the responsibility for deciding upon the approval of unlisted or unlabeled equipment and materials.
The authority enforcing the Code is not the NFPA.
My only real point is that each area handles the NEC differently.
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