Stray Voltage

[Little Bill]

I got a call from a customer that says he is getting shocked whenever he touches anything metal while touching a water spigot. He says the POCO has been there and checked everything on their end (supposedly). He also claims he burnt a #8 wire up, which I assume he ran to a ground rod. A clue that makes some sense is he says his power bill has been huge lately. This sounds like he could have a shorted heating element in his water heater and either a bad EGC or none at all. But something else that might negate that is he claims he turned all breakers off and the meter still spins. He says that only when the main is off does the meter stop.

I have a few things I'm going to start checking but wanted to get some more ideas before I go. I have not ever been to this building. My customer owns it and rents it out. I do know one thing, he had another electrician there and he told him he needed a ground rod! So I know that guy didn't have a clue!
Thoughts?

 

[ptonsparky]

The main being right next to the meter would help eliminate a faulted conductor.
More than one panel on the load side of that main?

Does sound like his water lines have never been bonded and it has become energized.
It happened to my BIL. He was in the tub when he discovered that fault.

 

[synchro]

... He also claims he burnt a #8 wire up, which I assume he ran to a ground rod.

I think that's a red flag. Not just because it burnt up, but because the customer apparently was fooling with it.

I got a call from a customer that says he is getting shocked whenever he touches anything metal while touching a water spigot.

... A clue that makes some sense is he says his power bill has been huge lately.

... he claims he turned all breakers off and the meter still spins. He says that only when the main is off does the meter stop.

... I do know one thing, he had another electrician there and he told him he needed a ground rod!

It sounds kind of nuts, but perhaps the customer added a ground rod and hooked the #8 wire to a feedthru lug on the main bus.
That would be consistent with the main breaker needing to be off for the meter to stop. Of course most of what the customer said might be bogus or at least a misinterpretation of what's going on.
There could also be other things wrong in the grounding/bonding as well.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

it would be almost impossible to flow enough current through a ground rod to burn up an 8 AWG conductor.
First step would be to turn off the main and see of the issue goes away. If it does then the issue is on the load side of the main. If it doesn't, the problem is on the line side and is very likely a power company problem.

 

[synchro]

it would be almost impossible to flow enough current through a ground rod to burn up an 8 AWG conductor.
First step would be to turn off the main and see of the issue goes away. If it does then the issue is on the load side of the main. If it doesn't, the problem is on the line side and is very likely a power company problem.

Before I made the post I thought in my head it probably wouldn't be more than about 12 amps if it was only a ground rod by itself. But perhaps other parts of a GES might be connected such as water pipes, etc. Like I mentioned, what the customer has said might be bogus and so no assumptions should be made.

 

[Little Bill]

it would be almost impossible to flow enough current through a ground rod to burn up an 8 AWG conductor.
First step would be to turn off the main and see of the issue goes away. If it does then the issue is on the load side of the main. If it doesn't, the problem is on the line side and is very likely a power company problem.

That was my first thing to try, measure the voltage, then turn off the main.

 

[Little Bill]

I was rushing to make the OP and forgot to mention this. The building is a repair shop that repairs hydraulic equipment. The renter most likely is also a tinkerer and could have tried connecting or welding a #8 to almost anything!
Not that it matters much, but I'm not sure of the building voltage. I do know that the part of town the building is in usually is 240/120V Delta w/high leg for commercial/industrial.

 

[winnie]

I'll vote for damaged water heater element, a failed water heater breaker (or water heater on the outside legs of a skinny quad and not fully shut off) and no plumbing bond.

Jon

 

[Buck Parrish]

If the tenant uses a welder. As implied, we just added a couple layers to this trouble shooting.

 

[Buck Parrish]

Also , is it a three wire sub panel or four.? Are the grounding wires isolated? Are utilities ground going to the grounding electrode system or are they going to a neutral on a sub panel that's not isolated?

 

[Buck Parrish]

Don't forget any thing that is bonded to a electrode grounding system can also become a return path if the main neutral is lost.
You could have cast iron drains in the ground that are attached to the water lines. Even if the utilities in not completely lost. These underground drains become an excellent return path.
Oh well I'm just speculating....

 

[Little Bill]

I can't answer many questions about what's there as I have not been there yet. All the info I have came via a phone conversation with the owner (landlord) and tenant.
I'll report back after I actually go there tomorrow.

 

[ptonsparky]

I can't answer many questions about what's there as I have not been there yet. All the info I have came via a phone conversation with the owner (landlord) and tenant.
I'll report back after I actually go there tomorrow.

Could you go a little early? I’d like to know before I get on the road.

 

[Little Bill]

Could you go a little early? I’d like to know before I get on the road.

I may as well go now because it's "praying on my mind"!

Funny thing I remember, my sister was going on a trip one time and left about 1 or 2 in the morning to avoid traffic. She stopped in a Waffle House and ran into one of our cousins. He owned a machine shop and she wondered what he was doing in there so early. His reply....."well I was laying in bed putting a motor together in my mind. I couldn't sleep so I figured if all I was doing was laying in bed thinking about it, I might as well go and actually do it!"

 

[James L]

....he claims he turned all breakers off and the meter still spins. He says that only when the main is off does the meter stop.

Main is outside?
If every breaker inside is turned off and meter still runs, and then meter stops only when main is off, that would be something shorted in the feed - no?

Depending on the structure materials, maybe metal siding on a wood frame, with spigot screwed to metal siding that's energized somehow.

I've seen twice, on residential....

Stucco mesh energized by staples in a main feed. People were getting shocked by the metal doorbell button and water spigots.

Gutters were energized by a downspout strap that got screwed into a homerun.

 

[ptonsparky]

I had one where the roof leaked bad enough that it soaked the blown cellulose and consequently the K&T wiring. Storm door was energized.

 

[romex jockey]

The renter most likely is also a tinkerer

gotta love those folks..... ~RJ~

 

[ptonsparky]

I tinker. It's what keeps me interested and either proves or disproves some of my hairbrained thoughts. Typically I clean up my own mess though.
Speaking of which, I looked at Flukes website. Can a guy that's 72 and wanting to retire justify a $900 meter?
Will they take my Cabela's Club points?

 

[James L]

Can a guy that's 72 and wanting to retire justify a $900 meter?
Will they take my Cabela's Club points?

Retirement gift, imho

Rolex, Fluke, what's the difference?

 

[Hv&Lv]

I got a call from a customer that says he is getting shocked whenever he touches anything metal while touching a water spigot. He says the POCO has been there and checked everything on their end (supposedly). He also claims he burnt a #8 wire up, which I assume he ran to a ground rod. A clue that makes some sense is he says his power bill has been huge lately. This sounds like he could have a shorted heating element in his water heater and either a bad EGC or none at all. But something else that might negate that is he claims he turned all breakers off and the meter still spins. He says that only when the main is off does the meter stop.

I have a few things I'm going to start checking but wanted to get some more ideas before I go. I have not ever been to this building. My customer owns it and rents it out. I do know one thing, he had another electrician there and he told him he needed a ground rod! So I know that guy didn't have a clue!
Thoughts?

MLO panel with UG wiring coming out the bottom to another place?