Stray Voltage

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wclark160 said:
Thanks for the replies. The utility dept came out yesterday and checked their side of things. I was not home at the time but my wife was. She said they tested several things and then concluded that they "think" it is a ground rod issue. To my knowledge, they did not perform a ground rod resistance test, as their seemed to be alot of assumptions rather than facts. My electrician used a galv/tin coated rod where the utility dept recommended a copper. The rod was also very loose at the top so they are unsure of it's effectiveness. A copper rod will be installed today.
Thought...This monolithic slab has 2' wide, 4' deep footers that are in direct contact with the earth and should be at ground potential. If the ground rod was effective, it should also be at ground potential. Therefore, though not bonded together physically, the slab and the electrical system should be at the same potential.
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let me start by saying I work for a utility.

when you say the utility department came out, they were service techs.
Most utility service techs don’t understand electricity..

their tests probably consisted of putting a load on the house with something like “the beast” and seeing no issue they say the issue is on your side.
What they fail to look for is a primary neutral problem, or another nearby customer problem.

More than likely you will have to find the problem yourself and prove it’s an N problem.

as others have said, driving a ground rod won’t fix fhe problem. HOWEVER, if it does, thats another issue that needs to be addressed.
 
Hv&Lv said:
let me start by saying I work for a utility.

when you say the utility department came out, they were service techs.
Most utility service techs don’t understand electricity..

their tests probably consisted of putting a load on the house with something like “the beast” and seeing no issue they say the issue is on your side.
What they fail to look for is a primary neutral problem, or another nearby customer problem.

More than likely you will have to find the problem yourself and prove it’s an N problem.

as others have said, driving a ground rod won’t fix fhe problem. HOWEVER, if it does, thats another issue that needs to be addressed.
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Thanks HV. I'm glad you shed light on the Utility. Many family members of mine are lineman, and will tell you they know just enough to keep them safe! I'm going to keep digging and find the problem.
 
wclark160 said:
Thanks for the replies. The utility dept came out yesterday and checked their side of things. I was not home at the time but my wife was. She said they tested several things and then concluded that they "think" it is a ground rod issue. To my knowledge, they did not perform a ground rod resistance test, as their seemed to be alot of assumptions rather than facts. My electrician used a galv/tin coated rod where the utility dept recommended a copper. The rod was also very loose at the top so they are unsure of it's effectiveness. A copper rod will be installed today.
Thought...This monolithic slab has 2' wide, 4' deep footers that are in direct contact with the earth and should be at ground potential. If the ground rod was effective, it should also be at ground potential. Therefore, though not bonded together physically, the slab and the electrical system should be at the same potential.
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>The rod was also very loose at the top so they are unsure of it's effectiveness.
It's the bottom part of the ground rod the really matters. The bottom 4 to 6 feet of the rod should be in contact with moist soil year-round. Some freeze thaw cycles will put the dirt at the top of the rod back in solid contact with it.
 
robertd said:
>The rod was also very loose at the top so they are unsure of it's effectiveness.
It's the bottom part of the ground rod the really matters. The bottom 4 to 6 feet of the rod should be in contact with moist soil year-round. Some freeze thaw cycles will put the dirt at the top of the rod back in solid contact with it.
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The effectiveness or even lack of a grounding electrode has nothing to do with these types of issues.
 
It's all because of the utility ... they are "cheap". They wanted to save money by combining the neutral and grounding to the uninsulated triplex guy wire. But it would cost money to have an insulated neutral.
 
I don't disagree that they are cheap. They are cheap because they want the customer to exhaust everything they can do before they will come out and investigate what is causing the problem.

The reason the neutral is not insulated is for a very good reason, it's multi-grounded. To prevent the other phases from spiking too high should a phase ground fault occur.
 
Sea Nile said:
I don't disagree that they are cheap. They are cheap because they want the customer to exhaust everything they can do before they will come out and investigate what is causing the problem.

The reason the neutral is not insulated is for a very good reason, it's multi-grounded. To prevent the other phases from spiking too high should a phase ground fault occur.
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The utility has surge protectors/fuses for this. I agree with your statement of neighbors could be contributing to the problem, look up at the pole transformer ... how many service drops from that one transformer ?
 
mtnelect said:
The utility has surge protectors/fuses for this. I agree with your statement of neighbors could be contributing to the problem, look up at the pole transformer ... how many service drops from that one transformer ?
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Surge protectors?? you mean arrestors? That’s for spikes and transients caused by either switching or lightning and not for lost N conditions.
 
mtnelect said:
The utility has surge protectors/fuses for this. I agree with your statement of neighbors could be contributing to the problem, look up at the pole transformer ... how many service drops from that one transformer ?
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That's a n excellent question, how many service drops? I also wonder how far the property is from the substation and how far is the transformer from the residence.
 
mtnelect said:
The utility has surge protectors/fuses for this. I agree with your statement of neighbors could be contributing to the problem, look up at the pole transformer ... how many service drops from that one transformer ?
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If you think surge protection makes a difference, think again. Study after study has conclusively shown that the surge arrester every fifth pole rule (NESC) is entirely inadequate. And that has nothing to do with stray voltage.

Effectively you have unbalanced current on the neutral (because it’s a single phase system with line to neutral loads). You often hear “electricity takes the path of least resistance”. That is utterly false. Electricity takes ALL paths, proportional to their conductance (inverse of resistance).

In this case it is trying to flow back to the transformer. For whatever reason the Earth path is close to if not a better path than the neutral.
 
paulengr said:
If you think surge protection makes a difference, think again. Study after study has conclusively shown that the surge arrester every fifth pole rule (NESC) is entirely inadequate. And that has nothing to do with stray voltage.

Effectively you have unbalanced current on the neutral (because it’s a single phase system with line to neutral loads). You often hear “electricity takes the path of least resistance”. That is utterly false. Electricity takes ALL paths, proportional to their conductance (inverse of resistance).

In this case it is trying to flow back to the transformer. For whatever reason the Earth path is close to if not a better path than the neutral.
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My viewpoint is only a theory, but it kind of makes sense to me.
 
robertd said:


>The rod was also very loose at the top so they are unsure of it's effectiveness.
It's the bottom part of the ground rod the really matters. The bottom 4 to 6 feet of the rod should be in contact with moist soil year-round. Some freeze thaw cycles will put the dirt at the top of the rod back in solid contact with it.
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>The effectiveness or even lack of a grounding electrode has nothing to do with these types of issues.
Agreed, I was just pointing out that the top of the ground rod is not the important end, as far as the ground rod making a good
connection to the earth.
 
I think bottom line is that somewhere within the system there is a breakdown in the grounded conductor system. If confirmation is made that it is not at the user's side then it is on the POCO or neighboring system that share your neutral. In this the ground rods do nothing other than point to there is an issue somewhere in the system. The only "fix" is to correct where the neutral is compromised. Power is always trying to get back to the source even if it's not through the neutral so be it, it will still try.

If no neighbor is on the same grounded conductor, there is "an option" to finding the lost neutral, testing the grounding at each POCO GEC (problem not necessarily at the local transformer) at the point the NEV disappears, you now found the proximity of the compromised neutral is before this point. This can be labor intensive and POCO generally has very little incentive to put forth the effort. (POCO usually frown on you doing anything around their system. They might even call it trespassing.)
My experience with the POCOs around here (there are 5) most unless you can give them the very specific "proof" of the issue, as long as their meter is "spinning" (making them money for the power supplied) they have very little interest to put in the effort to finding the issue. Fastest I get response from them is when you tell them you have "lights" but the meter isn't "spinning", they almost fall over themselves to get there (minutes) otherwise "we'll get there when we can".
 
My understanding of a ground rod is that the only purpose it serves is to bleed off induced voltage from nearby lightning strikes. Other than that, they have no purpose whatsoever.

But after watching every swimming pool video that Mr. Holt has on his site,. My understanding of having an electrode encased shell will protect swimmers from NEV.

That's why I suggested a ground ring around the house installed exactly the same way a pool would be installed.

I know many will tell me it's pointless and I accept that, but I'm just brain storming here.
 
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Sea Nile said:
My understanding of a ground rod is that the only purpose it serves is to bleed off induced voltage from nearby lightning strikes. Other than that, they have no purpose whatsoever.
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That is not true. The first question that needs to be asked and answered is why the supply system needs to be grounded in the first place. Only then can you best analyze the purpose of ground electrodes (not just rods).

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk
 
GoldDigger said:
Only then can you best analyze the purpose of ground electrodes (not just rods).
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Good point, I meant to say (or at least I was thinking) both concrete encased electrodes and ground rods. I editing my post when you replied BTW. I will have to go back and watch them again, but I've watched every grounding and bonding video Mr. Holt has published including the grounding and bonding book and DVD.
 
Sea Nile said:
But after watching every swimming pool video that Mr. Holt has on his site,. My understanding of having an electrode encased shell will protect swimmers from NEV.

That's why I suggested a ground ring around the house installed exactly the same way a pool would be installed.
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If you have a sufficiently bonded structure, everyone inside that structure would be protected from the problems described in the original post, just like swimmers in a properly bonded pool.

This would probably mean bonding all of the rebar in the slab and footing, not just a ground ring.

This would not eliminate the problem, simply move it outside the house.

Jon
 
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