Stray Voltage

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touch voltage

touch voltage

Well we disagree with the comments on the 25 ohms . Read article 250.56 a single electrode consisting of a rod pipe or plate that does not have a resistance to ground of 25 ohms or less shall be augmented by one additional electrode ect ect . Also yes most engineers cant explain because they think a electrician is not able to understand , but were not talking data or tele comm my work is industrial ,power plants or commercial large projects with high specs . our ground earth is nothing special just sand ,clay mixed , type c soil mostly but we go down deep some of our rods go to 60 foot it depends on resistance of test . when you drive multi rods it easy to get low resistance . Touch voltage on the towers ground resistance for the tower would have to be less than one ohm it has to do with voltage from live line to earth distance . someone told me that once .comments best to ya
 
090124-1540 EST

Some general comments.

To some extend you can consider a vertical rod driven into the ground to be an isotropic radiator.

What does isotropic mean? From dictionary.com
"Identical in all directions; invariant with respect to direction."

If we consider a long vertical rod and assume the resistivity of the soil to be uniform, then there is a uniform current density leaving the rod. This also means there is another imaginary large diameter conductive cylinder concentric and spaced a substantial distance from the rod. This will be an isotropic system and can be mathematically analyzed.

For each radial foot I move away from the rod the amount of soil in the 1 foot thick cylinder wall increases and thus the resistance of that cylinder becomes lower. I get more resistors of the same value in parallel as I move further from the center rod.

Maximum resistance is closest to the rod and becomes insignificant as you get further away. Therefore maximum voltage drop occurs close to the rod.

If you measure resistance between two rods spaced a substantial from one another, then you do not have an isotropic radiator but an approximation to one. You still see the majority of voltage drop close to the rods.

In my area If I measure the resistance between two 8 ft vertical rods about 30 ft apart I get in the range of 10 to 20 ohms. I make this resistance measurement from the voltage between the rods and the current thru them. My excitation is the output of a 28 V transformer. Before applying voltage I measure the rod to rod voltage to determine if there are stray currents. In the places I have done this there have been only a few millivolts and this is not a significant source of error.

If you were confronted with stray currents, then you need an excitation frequency that will allow you to eliminate these errors. You do not want to do a DC measurement because of polarization problems. However, with a Simpson 260 in the ohms position I can quickly switch between + and - and get results comparable to the AC measurement.

In the real world you will not have an isotropic field, but this type of analysis still gives you an estimate of what happens.


Next consider the resistance between two rods and what a resistance of 25 ohms might mean. Here is a real world problem you have to fight. Some machine tool manufacturers have told customers that they need to put a ground rod at a machine and disconnect the EGC from the machine. This is wrong and not safe.

Assume this was done and the resistance from the ground rod or electrode at the service entrance to this isolated rod at the machine is 25 ohms. Now short circuit a 120 V hot conductor to the machine chassis. The short circuit current will be 120/25 = 4.8 A. This will never trip a 20 A breaker, and the voltage on the chassis of the machine will be close to 120 V relative to the ground reference at the main panel. Next make the ground resistance between the rods 10 ohms. Still won't blow the breaker with just 12 A.

Next we will try a 1 ohm ground resistance and a 100 ft length of #12 copper for the hot wire. The wire resistance is 0.159 ohms. The current is 120/ 1.159 = 103.5 A. This will trip the breaker, but until it trips the voltage on the machine chassis is 103.5 V.

Note: that even a ground electrode resistance of 1 ohm results in a large voltage on the machine chassis.

If a #12 EGC had been connected to the machine and no auxiliary ground rod, then with a dead short circuit and an invariant 120 V source the current would have been 120/0.318 = 377 A and the machine chassis would be 60 V RMS with a peak of 170 V until the breaker trips, probably about 8 to 16 MS.

Lightning is a somewhat different story. Still consider a 1 ohm resistance to ground. Suppose a 10,000 A lightning current flows into this 1 ohm grounding electrode. Now there is a difference in potential between somewhere in the earth and the electrode of 10,000 V. Suppose there are no other connections in the building to earth and leakage resistance is 1000 ohms to earth. There would be less than 10 A flow into the building, and the amount would depend the fields from the building to earth.

But lightning bolts are rather high frequency signals and if you insert impedance in series with conductors into the building the amount of current entering the building can be greatly reduced. Additionally all paths on the outside of the building to and including the ground electrode should be low inductance, broad (wide) conductors to lower the high frequency impedance.

If internal to the building you can keep differential voltages between different parts of the building low during a lightning strike, then minimum damage occurs independent of what potential the building has relative to some place in the earth. This means keep lightning current out of the building, eliminate supplemental paths to ground, and keep impedances low within the building.

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Lighting and resistance to earth

Lighting and resistance to earth

Well Gar were impressed with the post but we disagree with the ground rod resistance . Yes there is also lighting if a high resistance is say 100 ohms to ground rods on a counter poise around a building and the down leads from your roof lighting rods are connected to these 100 ohm rods , that high voltage will go to the nearest point of earth lowest polarity which is low ohms so it gos thur the metal building or anything but them rods so why do we install ground rods to give a low path to earth . High voltage takes any path to earth lighting will shoot out of a conductor if its bent more than sweep . maybe its florida were the capital of ligthing in the usa. have you heard of the rolling ball theory ? comments best to ya
 
090124-1627 EST

ohmhead:

My comments are broad scope points of view. Impedance is a very major factor relative to lightning. Also one is dealing with an ionized gas which may do its own thing. When my dad was young he experienced a ball of lightning come into the basement. I believe this may have been before they had electricity and phones, thus no wires into the house. I have no idea if the house was lighted with gas or lanterns. The streets were lighted with gas lights. The iron mine lifts were powered with steam. Refrigeration was obtained from blocks of ice cut from the lake in the winter and stored in an ice house for use when it was warm.

If you have a low impedance path to and into the earth, then you have a greater chance of that electric charge dissipating into the earth instead of along your wires into the house. A good reference that I had found on the internet that discussed techniques to minimize interior equipment damage has disappeared. This largely discussed using low pass filters into the house, and low impedance to earth.

The important function to accomplish on the interior is minimization of voltage differences.

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touch voltage

touch voltage

Well Gar i guess some electricians have a understanding that one or two rods are acceptable and thats min nec code . What a ground rod does if one thinks of a rod as a resistor to earth if a metal tower has 3 high voltage lines at 5000 volts A B C assuming a resistance of 40 ohms impedance of power source and also in addition rod to earth a ground resistance of 10 ohms .Now a phase or line shorts to the metal tower person touching the tower would be subjected to the voltage developed across the ground resistance this would be 1000 volts ohms law , now that also would depend on the resistance of the person to limit touch voltage one must lower resistance to earth . One ohm would be 100 volts touch voltage in this case . Were not by no means a expert just a simple electrician trying to say theres more to ground rods then we think . best to yas
 
Now a phase or line shorts to the metal tower person touching the tower would be subjected to the voltage developed across the ground resistance this would be 1000 volts ohms law

If a 5KV line energizes a tower and does not open the circuits over current device there is no amount of grounding electrodes that would protect a person touching this tower while standing on the earth. The person would have to be literally and completely standing only on the ground rod to be protected.
 
Well were not saying the person would be alive what were trying to get you to understand is it will limit a fault or limit a short or limit a potential to a point of ground . Its just a simple example of a rod with a high or low resistance . Iam one for learning a new way as your last post suggested can one tell me the advantage of not having a ground rod on your service ? iam open for discussion best to ya
 
One of the times I was back visiting my relatives in Texas, I noticed that some of the services on the houses did not have a ground. Keep in mind these were houses that were about 40+ years old.
 
Well yes you will add a rod and you need to get 25 ohms or less ?
No I think you need to read 250.56 again. Now where does 250.56 says it has to be less than 25 ohms when finnished

It says "if a single electrode does not have a resistance of 25 ohms or less it shall be augmented by one additional electrode" period. If the first electrode measures 500, and you drive the second you should get 250 ohms and that is good enough to satisfy 250.56 requirements.

This is why just about every electrician drives two rods and calls it a day. If they only drive one then they have to prove to the inspector it is 25 ohms or less. If you drive two rods, there is no question as you met the requirements and the impedence is of no concern be it 5 or 1000 ohms.
 
but were not talking data or tele comm my work is industrial ,power plants or commercial large projects with high specs . our ground earth is nothing special just sand ,clay mixed , type c soil mostly but we go down deep some of our rods go to 60 foot
Now we are getting somewhere. In my first 10 years I was a substation and relay control engineer. Now you are talking high voltage and that has a completely different set of rules.

Here is the easy way to look at it. Let’s say we have a house, we drive a rod and achieve 25 ohms OK. Now Joe homeowner is working on a 15 amp circuit working out side in his bare feet in the mud which he has liberally cotes his feet with salt to ground himself so he feels safe. Well while Joe is working his wife turns the circuit on while Joe is striping the black wire with his teeth. What happens?

Well other than Joes wife is a rich widow, nothing happens because 120 volts applied to 25 ohms is a 4.8 amp load and the circuit breaker is tickled pink and happy to kill Joe.

Now ask yourself what happens at high voltage? Do we get high enough fault currents to operate an OCPD? High voltage is a whole other ball game. So yes power companies go to great lengths to make a generator station and substations have very low impedances. Where I worked a 345 KV had to be 1-ohm or less. However there was a ground grid installed under the rock and all steel deck for employees to stand on, towers, structures, ect were bonded to the grid because even 1 ohm was too high of an impedence to protect pesonel.
 
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Yes there is also lighting if a high resistance is say 100 ohms to ground rods on a counter poise
You are assuming that 100 ohms is a lightning impedance it is not, it is a power frequency measurement.

Look at it another way take a 10 foot piece of 750 MCM conductor. Would you say that is a sufficient size and low impedance conductor for a GEC? Well if we are talking about DC and power frequencies it would be low impudence. But at lightning rise and fall times that 10 foot piece of 750 is around 2.6 K ohms. So now put that in series with your so called 100 GES and tell me what the impedance is. In my book it is still 2.6 K ohms or higher. Reality is that 100 ohm GES you are thinking of is much higher at lightning frequencies, several hundred time higher.
 
Well Dereckbc ,no the 100 ohms that was just a example of the ground rod resistance on a counter poise grounding ring running around say a building or a structure meaning rod to earth ohms . When a lightning strike hit the roof of a building meaning roof top lightning rods then it would just take any path to ground of least resistance . Bypassing the rods to the earth by high resistance of the rods and pass thur building metal . best to ya
 
commprogram to design a ground system

commprogram to design a ground system

Well to keep the post readable and short , there are programs to calculate the design of substation grounding systems. Methods are found in AIEE GUIDE 80 the typical input to a grounding program is , soil rest, size length no. of strands of copper conductor , spacing of configuration , ground mat resistance ,depth of rod or grid below ground level , TOLERABLE LIMITS AND MAXIMUM VALUES OF STEP AND TOUCH POTENTIALS, Estep =potential difference between any two points on the ground surface which can be touched simultaneously by the feet . Etouch = is any point which can be touched with either hand . Just thought i add this thats what our engineers use to design with were not trying to offend anyone were just giving the input on grounding is not done correctly ever on most jobs and thats why people get zapped or animals .comments best to ya
 
Stray Current - not Stray Voltage

Stray Current - not Stray Voltage

This is really about Stray Current - not Stray Voltage. I have never understood why it is called Stray Voltage by most people.

The article is reasonably accurate but no one has really looked at the cost that Don Zipse has proposed; this is why the electric utilities have dug their heals in to fight this issue. I went to Don Zipse since he is the cheer leader of the stray voltage issue.

Consider that Zipse wants the entire US distribution system changed from a wye to a delta configuration. All of the existing transformer will have to be junked and replaced with higher voltage primary coils and this is just the start. Just installing a grounding conductor would be prohibitive since, in many cases, taller poles would be required. All underground cables would have to be replaced where only one phase exists.

I could go on but you get the idea. Do you think we are ready to see our electric bills double or even go higher? :confused:

In my opinion, stray voltage should always be addressed as it becomes a problem. Correcting existing grounding problems take care of 90% of the problems. Using equipotential planes for swimming pools and farmsteads will take care of the rest. The question becomes, "Who is going to pay for 'fixing' my problems?" That is also a local issue. If all of the wiring met the NEC at the time of installation, I think the local electric utility should foot the revamping bill. All other work should be borne by the user. :smile:
 
Well Gar i guess some electricians have a understanding that one or two rods are acceptable and thats min nec code .
Do you agree/disagree that an installer can drive two ground rods and walk away, by the NEC?

What a ground rod does if one thinks of a rod as a resistor to earth if a metal tower has 3 high voltage lines at 5000 volts A B C assuming a resistance of 40 ohms impedance of power source and also in addition rod to earth a ground resistance of 10 ohms .Now a phase or line shorts to the metal tower person touching the tower would be subjected to the voltage developed across the ground resistance this would be 1000 volts ohms law , now that also would depend on the resistance of the person to limit touch voltage one must lower resistance to earth .
You can lower resistance of the tower to earth as much as you want, and you will still kill the person if they are touching the tower.

Simple question, from one simple electrician to another: When you turn on twenty recessed cans on a 120V circuit, does the voltage drop to zero on the receptacles on that circuit? Would an alarm clock on that circuit shut off, since the resistance of the alarm clock is very high, and the resistance of the cans is much lower?

It doesn't happen, because electricity seeks all paths back to it's source. It doesn't seek the path of least resistance. Ignoring the voltage drop of the circuit itself for a moment, all points on that circuit read 120V from hot to ground, or hot to neutral.

All points on your energized tower would be 5000V to remote earth. By lowering the resistance of the tower to earth, we can attempt to overload the overcurrent protection feeding the fault, and thus end the fault, but anyone touching the tower while it is in fault is in big trouble, we didn't save them by grounding the tower.
 
Well no i disagree you must be lower than 25 ohms if it takes more than two or three or four ground rods thats how we see it . we never said he would be alive we just limit the voltage to him ? and its 1000 volt touch voltage not 5000 volts that is the line voltage comments
 
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