Structure

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hhsting

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Attached Figure 1 (left) and Figure 2 (right). Which is defined as structure per Nec 2014?
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hhsting said:
Attached Figure 1 (left) and Figure 2 (right). Which is defined as structure per Nec 2014?

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Nobody knows which Figure is Structure per Nec 2014? Anyone have any experience regarding the matter?

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Pretty much an AHJ call especially prior to '17:

2014; Structure. That which is built or constructed
2017: Structure. That which is built or constructed, other than equipment.

Locally they would have been structures in 2014, likely not in '17.
 
augie47 said:
Pretty much an AHJ call especially prior to '17:

2014; Structure. That which is built or constructed
2017: Structure. That which is built or constructed, other than equipment.

Locally they would have been structures in 2014, likely not in '17.
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Both figures post #1 considered to be equipment 2017? How so?

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hhsting said:
Attached Figure 1 (left) and Figure 2 (right). Which is defined as structure per Nec 2014?
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If the only difference between the two figures is whether the posts are in concrete, that certainly makes no difference. They are either both structures, or neither are.
 
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The H frame in both figures is a structure.

Both have equipment attached to them.

Stand alone equipment, pedestal type equipment is one example, isn't considered a structure anymore.
 
jaggedben said:
If the only difference between the two figures is whether the posts are in concrete, that certainly makes no difference.
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I agree with this.
kwired said:
The H frame in both figures is a structure. Both have equipment attached to them.
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I agree with this as well. Are you essentially asking whether you need to install a grounding electrode system for either configuration? If so, my answer is yes to both. Reference 250.32(A).

 
charlie b said:
I agree with this.
I agree with this as well. Are you essentially asking whether you need to install a grounding electrode system for either configuration? If so, my answer is yes to both. Reference 250.32(A).
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Even in 2017 this would be considered structure?

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hhsting said:
Even in 2017 this would be considered structure?

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The H frame is constructed or built. The "equipment" is mounted on the structure.

If this were a pedestal style enclosure, then the entire assembly is equipment.
 
There's more than art 250's GE & GEC's.....

ref 225.31 & 225.32 disco & locations.....the ex for lamposts exist due to the (then) cmp re-defining lamposts out of the realm of 'structures'

prior to this, lamp & lighting posts could be (code wise) interpreted as a structure

~RJ~
 
romex jockey said:
There's more than art 250's GE & GEC's.....

ref 225.31 & 225.32 disco & locations.....the ex for lamposts exist due to the (then) cmp re-defining lamposts out of the realm of 'structures'

prior to this, lamp & lighting posts could be (code wise) interpreted as a structure

~RJ~
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But as long as you only fed the lamp post with a branch circuit and not a service or feeder it didn't really matter no disconnect or GEC was required.
 
This is the reason NFPA changed the code -- always thought it was silly to consider it a structure in prior codes -- do you consider this the structure disconnect or is this the remote service disconnect?
 
mwm1752 said:
This is the reason NFPA changed the code -- always thought it was silly to consider it a structure in prior codes -- do you consider this the structure disconnect or is this the remote service disconnect?
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After they no longer allowed feeders to separate buildings with a grounded conductor grounded again at the load end - I don't think it really matters. If you have a service disconnect and then feed a different structure you will need a GES at your service disconnect whether it is on a structure or not and you will need to run a separate EGC to the separate structure, as well as install a GES that is connected to the EGC at that separate structure. You can call the "remote disconnect" structure or not a structure, it really don't change what you must do with it.
 
kwired said:
After they no longer allowed feeders to separate buildings with a grounded conductor grounded again at the load end - I don't think it really matters. If you have a service disconnect and then feed a different structure you will need a GES at your service disconnect whether it is on a structure or not and you will need to run a separate EGC to the separate structure, as well as install a GES that is connected to the EGC at that separate structure. You can call the "remote disconnect" structure or not a structure, it really don't change what you must do with it.
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600 amp remote service with 3- 200 amp service disconnect - parallel 250mcm AL = 3/0 AL electrode conductor max size run from structure to remote panels grouped terminated in lugs
or
600 amp remote service with 3- 200 amp disconnect - parallel 250mcm AL = 2 rods max 6# cu electrode conductor electrode system remote -- 3- 200 amp feeders to structure disconnect terminate in each panels OCPD/disconnect 250 MCM to each panel = max 4# cu electrode conductor electrode system to each panel inside structure

ECG is same in both cases -- you eliminate the 3/0 AL IMO there can be a big difference whether you use the service disconnect as the structure disconnect.
 
mwm1752 said:
600 amp remote service with 3- 200 amp service disconnect - parallel 250mcm AL = 3/0 AL electrode conductor max size run from structure to remote panels grouped terminated in lugs
or
600 amp remote service with 3- 200 amp disconnect - parallel 250mcm AL = 2 rods max 6# cu electrode conductor electrode system remote -- 3- 200 amp feeders to structure disconnect terminate in each panels OCPD/disconnect 250 MCM to each panel = max 4# cu electrode conductor electrode system to each panel inside structure

ECG is same in both cases -- you eliminate the 3/0 AL IMO there can be a big difference whether you use the service disconnect as the structure disconnect.
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You have me a little confused on what your getting at here.

If you have a "remote service disconnect" you can't run multiple feeders on to a separate structure as a general rule.

If you have a disconnect adjacent to a structure, code doesn't really address that as being separate structure, but many will allow it.

Mobile homes is one place where NEC does want the main disconnect, whether service or feeder supplied, for the home to be "not on the home" but still within 30 feet of the home.
 
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