My question is how far back in the code did seperating nuetral and grounds in sub panels come into affect? I'am asking this because recently I have seen quite a few comercial buildings that have 3 phase sub panels with only a nuetral. What happens if you do work in these panels ? Do you have to correct this?
sub feeds
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dcspector
Senior Member
- Location
- Burke, Virginia
David, good point, metallic conduit was used alone for EG and still can except for fueling stations to pumps, etc.
dcspector
Senior Member
- Location
- Burke, Virginia
SER.........? has a neutral and a ground....Are you thinking SEU? bare neutral?
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dcspector
Senior Member
- Location
- Burke, Virginia
I dont know? Good question. Others will help. I am old, but way before my time :smile:
frenchelectrican
Senior Member
- Location
- Nord'est Wisconsin et Paris France
101010 said:
you mean the bare wire for neutral ??
the last time i did see simuiar set up expect they used the bare exteral wire for grounding.
i dont really recalled to see if it was allowed per NEC but maybe it did many years ago but in European verison if this was same way it will be not allowed at all .
Merci , Marc
dcspector
Senior Member
- Location
- Burke, Virginia
Marc, yes the neutral is a ccc...."Bare" so was this ever a common practice...besides residential for ranges?
Dean83169
Senior Member
I didnt think that was ever legal in the code due to the CCC not being insulated because if the SER had a slice in the jacket you have the potential of getting wacked with the unbalanced load finding the shortest path. I see it a safety hazard and would recommend to change it, IMO.
dcspector
Senior Member
- Location
- Burke, Virginia
Dean I agree...But what were they thinking then....who knows?
101010,
Are the EGC and the neutrals all landed on the same bus, if not, is that bus
bonded to the metal of the panel? Regardless, I would inform the owners
of these properties of the danger and even offer to bring the EI in if they
need a second opinion.
It's like the doctor who passes by someone that needs help, or a fireman
who looks the other way, how else will this get fixed if we don't do some-
thing about it?? It will only get fixed after someone gets hurt or worst!
Are the EGC and the neutrals all landed on the same bus, if not, is that bus
bonded to the metal of the panel? Regardless, I would inform the owners
of these properties of the danger and even offer to bring the EI in if they
need a second opinion.
It's like the doctor who passes by someone that needs help, or a fireman
who looks the other way, how else will this get fixed if we don't do some-
thing about it?? It will only get fixed after someone gets hurt or worst!
Dean83169
Senior Member
I read the post, did you? Its bad enough that people come to this site to post questions but then to get so many answers and some wrong ones, its like you have to read through them all and take a general concensus of what everyone wrote because the code book has always been the problem of INTERPRETATION. I mean no disrespect Roger to you this is a general problem.
101010 said:
"What happens if you do work in these panels ? Do you have to correct this?"
As an inspector coming to this job there's 2 situations that I would look for:
1] If you have no interaction with this panel, the panel is beyond the scope of your work. . Your permit covers your scope of work and that's what your inspection report from me would cover. . Beyond the scope of work, I would contact the property owner if I saw any violations but I would recommend a withholding of occupancy to my CBO, Certified Building Official [who is the AHJ in Ohio] only if the violation was considered a serious hazard and danger. . This wouldn't affect your permit, your inspections, or your approvals.
2] If you did interact with this panel, you couldn?t get an approval to connect any new wiring to this panel. . The new circuiting does not have proper grounding when terminated in that panel. . You would need to fix the panel before you could use it to supply the installation under your permit.
David
Dean83169 said:
Dean, speaking of reading, did you read the first eleven words in my post"
You made a statement that a you didn't think it was ever legal due to an uninsulated CCC, well that is not the case, it may be a different application but uninsulated CCC's have been and still are legal.
Would your concern of somebody getting "wacked" by touching it not be a concern in a range or dryer installation?
You also made a statement that the load takes the shortest path, where is this shortest path going to?
The truth is that the statement of "electricity takes the shortest path" is not completely true, it takes all available paths and will divide proportionately depending on the impedance of each individual path to the source.
In conclusion, if your worried about someone getting the wrong answer this would be a perfect example of it. An apprentice would read your blanket statement and if he/she ever happened upon an old dryer or range circuit there is a good chance they would have no clue that the strands in the sheath could be carrying current because they read on a forum that it couldn't be the case since it was (supposedly) never allowed.
Dean, don't get upset if someone replies back to your post with a correction or a detail clarification, it happens all the time and will continue to do so.
Roger
racerdave3
Senior Member
- Location
- Western Massachusetts
Dean83169 said:
I agree with your statement, although it is the same situation as running SE cable on a house (I know this was a recent discussion and I'm not opening it up again). If the standard SE cable feeding a house were to get a slice in the outer jacket, the braided neutral would be exposed and it too will be carrying the imbalance between the 2 phases.
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