sub panel for Hot Tub

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If this tub was inside and not outside and the NM cable was supplying nothing but the tub then I would look at the breaker as nothing more than a disconnect for the tub.

If this tub is located outside then the issue of the breaker being a disconnect would be mute as any cable would then be a violation as the EGC would be required to be insulated.
 
jwelectric said:
a disconnect would be mute as any cable would then be a violation as the EGC would be required to be insulated.
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Mike, I don't believe you are correct with this........Excerpt from 680.42(C) Interior wiring to outdoor installations : ...any of the wiring methods recognized in Chapter 3 of this Code shall contain a copper equipment grounding conductor that is insulated OR enclosed within the outer sheath of the wiring method.........
 
If the tub is installed outside the dwelling unit then 680.42(C) would apply and any wiring method in Chapter III could be used for that portion of the circuit that was inside the dwelling.

2005 NEC said:
(C) Interior Wiring to Outdoor Installations. In the interior of a one-family dwelling or in the interior of another building or structure associated with a one-family dwelling, any of the wiring methods recognized in Chapter 3 of this Code that contain a copper equipment grounding conductor that is insulated or enclosed within the outer sheath of the wiring method and not smaller than 12 AWG shall be permitted to be used for the connection to motor, heating, and control loads that are part of a self-contained spa or hot tub or a packaged spa or hot tub equipment assembly. Wiring to an underwater light shall comply with 680.23 or 680.33.
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If this tub is installed inside then 680.43 will apply

2005 NEC said:
680.43 Indoor Installations. A spa or hot tub installed indoors shall comply with the provisions of Parts I and II of this article except as modified by this section and shall be connected by the wiring methods of Chapter 3.
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should this disconnect that is in question be located outside then a NM cable would not be allowed to supply it. If the disconnect is located inside then NM cable could supply it but it would then be useless for a tub installed outside.
Now comes the question, where does the inside stop and the outside begin?
 
jwelectric said:
If the tub is installed outside the dwelling unit then 680.42(C) would apply and any wiring method in Chapter III could be used for that portion of the circuit that was inside the dwelling.



If this tub is installed inside then 680.43 will apply




should this disconnect that is in question be located outside then a NM cable would not be allowed to supply it. If the disconnect is located inside then NM cable could supply it but it would then be useless for a tub installed outside.
Now comes the question, where does the inside stop and the outside begin?
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I agree that if it's an inside installation then yes cable can be used, outside then no, But now the question is (and there's been other threads) is a 2 position panel with an ocpd installed as a disconnect also a feeder, I would like to think no but the definition of a feeder says yes.:confused:
 
I am assuming that you mean a two circuit breaker enclosure when you say two position panel.
If this is an enclosure that will only accept a two pole breaker and the conductors are the same size from the panel the circuit originates to the tub, there is nothing else connected to this circuit but the two pole breaker then in my opinion the breaker is nothing more than a disconnect.
In my opinion everything from the point the circuit originates to and through the two pole breaker is a ?branch circuit? that is using the two pole breaker as a disconnect.

Now this will conflict with the definition of a feeder and the definition could be used to red tag this installation. If I were the inspector I would not red tag the tub.
 
In the 2005 NEC, 680.42(C) makes it pretty plain that a raceway is not necessary for the installation. If the disconnect is mounted on the exterior wall of the house, I can see no problem with using NM cable for the installation from the panel to the disconnect.

If the disconnect has an overcurrent device, such as a GFCI circuit breaker, the conductors from inside to the disco are feeders as per the definition in Art 100. One cannot change the definition because he/she feels that all of their career they treated it otherwise.
"If it smells like a duck, looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it is a feeder."
 
Yes I agree Jwelectric, the first tub I had ever done was an indoor to outdoor installation and the disconnect was supplied with nm cable and then they pulled nm through seal tight to the controller. Well needless to say it failed for lack of insulated EGC. The inspector made us pull thhn to the controller but apparently was not concerned with the NM feeding the disconnect, but after checking the code book I believe it was an oversight on his part and we should have a insulated EGC to the disconnect as well.
 
NM cable to a wall a mounted disconnect on the same buliding is acceptable where I live and I would expect that a 2 circuit enclouser feeding only the hot tub would also not draw a red tag if it were fed in the way described, with a cable assembly.
 
Pierre C Belarge said:
If the disconnect has an overcurrent device, such as a GFCI circuit breaker, the conductors from inside to the disco are feeders as per the definition in Art 100. One cannot change the definition because he/she feels that all of their career they treated it otherwise.
"If it smells like a duck, looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it is a feeder."
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I agree that by definition these are now feeders but I then ask myself what makes this definition fit.
What will be the difference between the circuit with the two pole breaker installed in the two circuit panel and a molded case switch installed in the same place?
Does this breaker afford any more overcurrent protection than the overcurrent device at the origin of the circuit?

Now if this enclosure had three spaces in it and one was being used for a receptacle then I would see a problem. If this disconnect is feed with a larger overcurrent device than what is in the two circuit enclosure then I have a problem.
If the two overcurrent devices are the same size then I don?t see how the second overcurrent device is affording any protection at all.

This breaker being used as a disconnect and the definition of feeder being used to turn the installation down would be the same as saying that the second that the finish on the interior wall was penetrated then the conductors were no longer in the interior of the dwelling and now require to have an insulated equipment grounding conductor.

What is the difference in one violation and the other? One can be justified as easily as the other. Should I decide to use the definition of feeder to red tag this installation then the second the interior wall was penetrated then I would also enforce 680.42(C). I would not pick one over the other. If it is going to smell like a duck, look like a duck, quack like a duck, then let?s call it a duck. Let?s start requiring this equipment grounding conductor to be insulated the very second that it penetrates the interior wall finish.
 
wireman3736 said:
1st I think I should have said 6-3 w/g, romex, You can't use #8 romex, it's only good for 40 amp, I would definitely use copper to the hot tub, allot of guy's use #6 ser AL to the disconnect from the main panel and I didn't know if the ground in the cable would be considered insulated, I wouldn't think a 2 position panel would be considered a sub panel, it isn't any different then a disconnect switch or pull out.
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wireman, you were correct the first time using 8-3 wg. As long as all terminals are 75c rated then your OK. But if one is 60c you'll have to go in the 60c wire chart and then 6-3 wg must be used.
Jim
 
james wuebker said:
wireman, you were correct the first time using 8-3 wg. As long as all terminals are 75c rated then your OK. But if one is 60c you'll have to go in the 60c wire chart and then 6-3 wg must be used.
Jim
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No he was right the second time, 334.80 NM, NMC shall be rated per the 60c rating.
 
jwelectric

I do not see much sense in requiring a insulated equipment ground where the feeder penetrates the outside wall to the disconnect, so you think it would be a safer job to run romex up to the outside wall and then change the wiring method for the last 12 inches to an insulated ground, makes no sense to me, I agree with pierre.

you should also check the specs for the hot tub, just inspected one that required minimum copper #8 equipment ground & #6 copper feeder conductors
 
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mpd said:
I do not see much sense in requiring a insulated equipment ground where the feeder penetrates the outside wall to the disconnect, so you think it would be a safer job to run romex up to the outside wall and then change the wiring method for the last 12 inches to an insulated ground, makes no sense to me, I agree with pierre.

you should also check the specs for the hot tub, just inspected one that required minimum copper #8 equipment ground & #6 copper feeder conductors
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Didn’t mean to imply that it would make much sense just meant to quote what was written to the best of my ability. Sorry for the implication.

What I am seeing is “In the interior of” so the second that I penetrate the finish of the wall I am no longer on the in the interior of the building.

Now I content that calling the conductors that are the same size installed with two overcurrent devices when it is obvious that the second is the same size as the first, is in a two circuit can and being used solely as a disconnecting means, “feeders,” would make just about as much sense as installing an insulated conductor through the wall.

I agree that they are feeders as defined in Article 100 but I also agree that an insulated equipment grounding conductor is required to exit the building.
 
jwelectric said:
I agree that they are feeders as defined in Article 100 but I also agree that an insulated equipment grounding conductor is required to exit the building.
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Mike you can not have it both ways even if it makes sense.

If it is a feeder feeder rules apply

If it is a branch circuit branch circuit rules apply.

It is not up to us to make sense of it but we can and / or are required to apply the rules as written.

You can't ignore Article 100 because it does not fit another code section as you believe it should.:)
 
iwire said:
Has any inspector been requiring or any electrician been required to bond the device box with 8 AWG?
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Inspector required me to bond the device box for a pool pump to the motor and alluminum pool frame just last week, with a #8 solid.
 
infinity said:
A hydromassage tub does not require an equipotential anything, other than the water circulation system.
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The Bonding language found in 680.74 in both the 2005 and the 2002 NEC books is there to establish a local equipotential plane the # 8 only bonds those items to each other .

(Thanks a lot George)

2002 680.74 was more inclusive than the 2005 680. 74
 
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