Sub panel grounding.

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k2electric

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I have a sub panel in my mothers detatched garage I am installing for her, I wired the entire garage this weekend.

The panel Im using is a 125A Square D Homeline, their is a bar across the top that connects the grounds and the nuetrals, the journeyman I work with said that to isolate the nuetrals I need to remove that bar... The bar was tricky to remove, I used my dykes and cut it so that each end could slide out from the plastic that secured it on each end.

Now Im looking at the panel and Im not seeing the ground bar actually touching the panel... Could I use a lug attactched to the metal of the panel and run a #?? copper to it from the ground bus?
 
I don't "cutting" the neutral bar was the best move.

They are either made to be seperated or you add the appropiate ground bar...something like this one [PK27GTA]
 
k2electric said:
The bar that ties the grounds and nuetrals? Hmm.. uhoh how can i fix
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No, brother. Those are both neutral bars. Neither one is a ground bar, unless you're using it as a service panel with the bond screw installed. If you're using an HOM panel as a sub, you need to leave those bars alone, as they are for the neutrals. Install one or several ground bar kits, such as were linked to. It will say both on the panel carton flap as well as the labeling inside the panel which ground bar kit(s) are adaptable to that panel. If you hacked out the tie bar by some means, you just turned a good panel into scrap. You might be able to do a workaround by putting the bond screw in one bar.
 
In my area, you just violated the UL listing. That's a nono. I made an electrician replace 6 panels in 6 houses for doing that.
 
I know what K2 is referring to, and I've seen it done and pass inspection. I know that doesn't make it okay, of course.

The factory-supplied bonding screw can still bond one of the two neutral buses if the bar was cut in the correct place.
 
Homeline? Load Centers Brochure
View or download (545K)

On page 2, items #6 & #9:
6. Split branch neutral, with up to 50% more terminations than required, reduces clutter and simplifies wiring.

9. Three ground bar mounting locations (left, right and bottom) let you pick the easiest spot to wire.
Click to expand...

Could be a real PITA if you don't watch your AFCI/GFCI CB locations after you cut the bar. (Not to mention the 110.3 violation :roll:)

Considering there is a product readily available to accomplish the grounding...why even consider the headache of cutting the bar?
 
I think this happens the most with Square D's panels, because of the fact you have to remember to ask for a ground bar kit.

Siemens, it comes in the box or already screwed to the can, you don't have the extra stupid mental hoop to remember to jump through.

Took me several panels (and much cursing several miles from the supply house) before I consistently remembered to ask for the ground bar.
 
georgestolz said:
I think this happens the most with Square D's panels, because of the fact you have to remember to ask for a ground bar kit..
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When you say it "happens", it's almost like you're talking about some act of nature. The tie bar is only hacked out in an HOM panel when people hack it out. It doesn't just "happen". :rolleyes:
 
mdshunk said:
georgestolz said:
I think this happens the most with Square D's panels, because of the fact you have to remember to ask for a ground bar kit..
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When you say it "happens", it's almost like you're talking about some act of nature. The tie bar is only hacked out in an HOM panel when people hack it out. It doesn't just "happen". :rolleyes:
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The last time I heard about it happening, it was done by a fellow electrician who considered me a hack. When I clucked my tongue at the story, he scoffed at how ridiculous it is that it would be a code violation.

When you get down to where the rubber meets the road, it's a pair of bars designed for the termination of conductors. The bonding jumper is designed to connect the can to one of the bars.

I do see the removal as a technical violation, and a petty one. If I were an inspector I wouldn't fail it (the first time), and I wouldn't make the guy feel small. :roll:
 
georgestolz said:
I do see the removal as a technical violation, and a petty one. If I were an inspector I wouldn't fail it (the first time), and I wouldn't make the guy feel small. :roll:
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So, it's okay to violate the panel's listing, as long as it's your first time? In the interest of education, you get a pass on the first go?
 
georgestolz said:
I do see the removal as a technical violation, and a petty one. If I were an inspector I wouldn't fail it (the first time).....
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I would, and I have, and I will continue to do so. A very important part of an inspector's job is to detect field modifications that void listing and labeling requirements. Lack of understanding the equipment one represents himself as being capable of installing should not create a special condition or hardship on the inspector. :) :roll:
 
Dare I post this excerpt from the UL White Book? :)

Field Modifications
What happens to the Listing if a UL-Listed product is modified in the field?




An authorized use of the UL Mark is the manufacturer?s declaration that the product was originally manufactured in accordance with the applicable requirements when it was shipped from the factory. When a UL-Listed product is modified after it leaves the factory, UL has no way to determine if the product continues to comply with the safety requirements used to certify the product without investigating the modified product. UL can neither indicate that such modifications ??void?? the UL Mark, nor that the product continues to meet UL?s safety requirements, unless the field modifications have been specifically investigated by UL. It is the responsibility of the Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ) to determine the acceptability of the modification or if the modifications are significant enough to require one of UL?s Field Engineering Services staff members to evaluate the modified product. UL can assist the AHJ in making this


determination.​

An exception for a field modification authorized by UL is when the product has specific replacement markings. For example, a switchboard may have specific grounding kits added in the field. The switchboard is marked with a list of specific kit numbers that have been investigated for use in that particular switchboard. Only grounding kits that are included on the marking on the product have been investigated for use in that product.​

If a party wishes UL to determine if the modifications made to a UL Listed product comply with UL requirements, the appropriate Field Engineering Service can be initiated to investigate the modifications. This investigation will only be conducted after UL consults with the AHJ to ensure that UL?s investigation addresses all areas of concern and meets all of the AHJ?s needs.
If you have any questions or would like to inquire about a Field Investigation, contact Field Services at +1-877-ULHELPS, prompt #2 (+1-877-854-3577) or visit http://www.ul.com/regulators/field.html.​
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It is the responsibility of the Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ) to determine the acceptability of the modification or if the modifications are significant enough to require one of UL?s Field Engineering Services staff members to evaluate the modified product. UL can assist the AHJ in making this determination.

I am a third-party (private) electrical inspector and I'm not the AHJ, so when this problem comes up, I always defer to the powers that be. They never accept it either.:)
 
georgestolz said:
Dare I post this excerpt from the UL White Book? :)

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Of course you may, but it's still a hack job. Acceptable to the AHJ, perhaps. Hack work, yes.

For crying out loud, George... why would you ever struggle to justify hack work?
 
I'm just pointing out, life is not black and white, our perceptions stem from a dazzling array of colors, not even black and white.

With a Square D, some cutting is involved.

With a Siemens, a simple #4 jumper is run between the two bars. If someone were to remove the #4 jumper, and you did not feel qualified to determine whether this constitutes a safety hazard or not, the UL has a helpline for you. ;) :D :)
 
georgestolz said:
I'm just pointing out, life is not black and white, our perceptions stem from a dazzling array of colors, not even black and white.
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C'mon, George.... Hacking out a tie bar is, well... hack work. There's no justification for it. :mad:
 
Now, to be fair and balanced (ie attack all directions) I will say this: the OP is not ready to be out on his own yet, IMO.

But this troubles me even more:

k2electric said:
...the journeyman I work with said that to isolate the nuetrals I need to remove that bar... The bar was tricky to remove, I used my dykes and cut it so that each end could slide out from the plastic that secured it on each end....
Click to expand...

That journeyman needs more training, and should not be training the help, IMO.

But that's tricky to see from my seat, perhaps this was a conspiracy of different people's bad days. :)
 
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