Sub panel grounding.

[celtic]

It's entirely possible the j-man was not at the OP's mother's detached garage on the weekend.
The j-man may not have even known what type panel was being installed.

 

[George Stolz]

C'mon, George.... Hacking out a tie bar is, well... hack work. There's no justification for it.

Did I miss something? Are you the OP's mother-in-law?

Some of the most memorable lessons I've ever had were mistakes I made. I've made very similar mistakes. What's the point of calling the apprentice a hack? The point's been made; if the guy does not feel bad about what he did, he never will, and is a hack.

If he looks at the panel again, realizes "Whoa! Duh! I should have known something was up!" and makes good on it, then he is a growing electrician.

Call me grumpy, but I don't see the point of incessantly rubbing his nose in this (IMO forgiveable) mistake.

 

[JohnJ0906]

I can't blame the OP too much. If the guy training says, "This is the right way to do this", how is he supposed to know it's actually wrong?

And it could be a case of 1 person saying one thing, and the other person hearing something else.

 

[SeanKelly]

I don't want to call anyone a "Hack" as I'm sure I made mistakes much worse than this. I think the main lesson to learn here is it is an incorrect install. Hopefully in the future, when he's screwing the ground bar into the can he's going to stop and laugh remembering the time he "hacked" (ie cut :smile: )the neutal jumper off with his dykes. Also, it takes about 30 seconds, including opening the wrapper, to install the ground bar.

 

[mvannevel]

It's entirely possible the j-man was not at the OP's mother's detached garage on the weekend.
The j-man may not have even known what type panel was being installed.

I can see Cetic's point. And more to the point, what the journeyman said may not have been what the OP heard. It's entirely possible that the journeyman was referring to removing the bonding screw from the neutral bar to isolate it, not removing the bar that bonds the neutral bars together.

I'm not sure how much time in trade the OP has (and I'm not trying to beat him up or rub his nose in it) but bells, whistles, and flashing red lights should have gone off at the thought of using dykes to separate those neutral bars. That should have told him right off the bat that the bars weren't intended to be separated. As would a quick glance at the labels inside the panel tub. All the information he needed was right there available to him.

Some of the most memorable lessons I've ever had were mistakes I made.

Isn't that the truth for all of us? I know it sure is for me. And hopefully that's what this will be to him. A memorable, albeit expensive, lesson. As I said, I've had my share.

I wouldn't put my name on the approval sticker after the neutral bar was worked over with a pair of dykes and, like you said, if he is a growing electrician he won't want his name on a job done like that. Bite the bullet and replace the panel.

That having been said, I do have to disagree with you here:

With a Square D, some cutting is involved.

If you've got to go cutting on it, you probably ain't doing something right. The mere fact that somebody didn't remember to get a ground bar kit doesn't, to me at least, give license for a "field expedient modification". Especially one that involves cutting. There are panels designed to have the neutral bars separated in the field for use as separate equipment grounding and neutral bars (Siemens and Cutler come to mind) and they come with specific instructions for doing so.

 

[tonyi]

Go to Home Depot, buy the same model panel and swap the guts out and make it right again.

This is a cheap lesson in the grand scheme of how expensive lessons can be :grin:

 

[RUWIREDRITE]

sub panel bonding screw

sub panel bonding screw

In many cases i've seen the duel neutral bars seperated to provide a ground bar and a neutral bar. As long as the ground bar has the bonding screw attached to the can and the neutral remains isolated.I have never failed altering a panel this way, sometimes I must swap the neutral or ground lugs on these bars to fit their supplying conductor properly. The local inspectors don't seem to have a UL problem with it.

 

[Builder]

Reading the manufacturer's directions that come with the item can help many times to avoid of this kind of problem.

If one is not familiar with an item, Read the directions.

 

[radiopet]

"UL can neither indicate that such modifications ??void?? the UL Mark, nor that the product continues to meet UL?s safety requirements, unless the field modifications have been specifically investigated by UL."

Yeah....we know THAT is gonna happen.....

 

[M. D.]

For what it is worth?? I can't say I have never done it ,.. I was once a young grasshopper myself. Ground bars are cheap enough

3.6
(SW)
Q.
Modifying UL Listed panelboards. It is a common practice in my jurisdiction for contractors to remove the cross bus in one manufacturer?s UL Listed panelboards that joins the two neutral or grounded conductor termination points. These panelboards have one termination bar located on each side of the equipment for the grounded circuit conductor. One of these two separated bus bars is then used for the grounded or neutral conductor terminations and the other is used as either an isolated equipment ground bus or the normal equipment grounding bus with the bonding screw added. Is this installation in compliance with the product standards used to evaluate a UL Listed panelboard?
A.
UL Lists Panelboards under the product category ?Panelboards (QEUY).? Guide Information can be found in UL?s Online Certification Directory at www.ul.com/database, and on page 196 in the 2006 UL White Book. UL Listed Panelboards are evaluated using UL 67, the Standard of Safety for Panelboards. Construction and performance requirements in this Standard determines the suitability of the busing and internal components. The manufacturer?s installation instructions identify these bus bars as grounded or neutral conductor terminations. The panelboard has not been evaluated with the cross bus removed.
UL does not know what the effect of a field modification, such as the relocation or removal of a bus bar, would have on the safety of the product or the product?s continued compliance with the UL Standard. To ensure the continued validity of the UL certification mark, such field modifications would need to be specifically investigated by UL under a Field Evaluation.
Additional information on field modifications to Listed equipment can be found on UL?s web site at: www.ul.com/regulators/modification.cfm. General information on this topic is also included in the introductory portion of the 2006 UL White Book under the section, ?Important Information for Users of the White Book?, on page xxxvii.
For information on UL?s Field Evaluation Program please contact UL?s Field Evaluation customer service at 1-877-UL-HELPS (1-877-854-3577) and select prompt ?2?.
Questions and Answers from UL Meetings with Electrical Inspectors
at the 2006 Annual IAEI Section Meetings
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