sub panel & se cable
- Thread starter shelco
- Start date
- Status
busman
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern Virginia
- Occupation
- Master Electrician / Electrical Engineer
Re: sub panel & se cable
If you separate the neutrals and grounds, which one would you attach the bare conductor of the SE cable to? What would be connected to the other bus?
If you separate the neutrals and grounds, which one would you attach the bare conductor of the SE cable to? What would be connected to the other bus?
Re: sub panel & se cable
The bare cable on the se would still be nuetral and the existing ground would be tied into the new panel. sounds legit to me. We could always tape the bare conductor and identify with white tape if that is an issue. The only reason for doing this is that to replace we would have to tear up walls inside the house.
The bare cable on the se would still be nuetral and the existing ground would be tied into the new panel. sounds legit to me. We could always tape the bare conductor and identify with white tape if that is an issue. The only reason for doing this is that to replace we would have to tear up walls inside the house.
Re: sub panel & se cable
Trying to understand here, but what you're suggesting is a code violation and dangerous. Where is ground fault current going to travel to clear a ground fault in the subpanel when you have no path back to power source?? Are you thinking it will travel through the earth, I hope not. You need ser, not seu. A 4 wire feeder is the only way to go here. Then you can safely isolate your neutrals and grounds and remove the green bonding screw from original panel which will now be a sub. Unless this is a separate building and you no mettalic paths a 3 wire feeder is unacceptable.
Trying to understand here, but what you're suggesting is a code violation and dangerous. Where is ground fault current going to travel to clear a ground fault in the subpanel when you have no path back to power source?? Are you thinking it will travel through the earth, I hope not. You need ser, not seu. A 4 wire feeder is the only way to go here. Then you can safely isolate your neutrals and grounds and remove the green bonding screw from original panel which will now be a sub. Unless this is a separate building and you no mettalic paths a 3 wire feeder is unacceptable.
milwaukeesteve
Senior Member
- Location
- Milwaukee, WI
Re: sub panel & se cable
to further BruceH's correct statements...
Do not try to avoid a problem either by bonding your gounded and your grounding (neutral and grounds) together at that subpanel, just because you have only one conductor. That is as dangerous as what BruceH described but for different reasons.
If that SE cable is no longer a Service Entrance conductor, you will most likely have to abandon it, because I can't thing of anything in a house that you could use it for.
to further BruceH's correct statements...
Do not try to avoid a problem either by bonding your gounded and your grounding (neutral and grounds) together at that subpanel, just because you have only one conductor. That is as dangerous as what BruceH described but for different reasons.
If that SE cable is no longer a Service Entrance conductor, you will most likely have to abandon it, because I can't thing of anything in a house that you could use it for.
Re: sub panel & se cable
I agree that this is not the best way but I am trying to help the home owner to avoid costly repairs.
I may not have explained clearly. I am not tieing the neutral and ground together at the sub panel. they will be separated. I am using the ground wire (#6) that was originally tied to the rods (as this was the main pnl) That will now be tied to the new main panel ground bus as a ground conductor to the sub panel and the neutral is still the neutral now separate. We have a 4 wire circuit but the ground is external to the cable. Looking for legal way to acomplish this.
I agree that this is not the best way but I am trying to help the home owner to avoid costly repairs.
I may not have explained clearly. I am not tieing the neutral and ground together at the sub panel. they will be separated. I am using the ground wire (#6) that was originally tied to the rods (as this was the main pnl) That will now be tied to the new main panel ground bus as a ground conductor to the sub panel and the neutral is still the neutral now separate. We have a 4 wire circuit but the ground is external to the cable. Looking for legal way to acomplish this.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: sub panel & se cable
There is no code compliant way to do what you want.
The cable must be abandon and replaced.
Grounding the panel through the old (and new) GECs is a violation of at least 300.3(B) and probably half a dozen more sections.
You will not be doing the customer any favors by trying to take short cuts.
Accept the fact that the NEC requirements are there for safety and not your customers convenience.
There is no code compliant way to do what you want.
The cable must be abandon and replaced.
Grounding the panel through the old (and new) GECs is a violation of at least 300.3(B) and probably half a dozen more sections.
You will not be doing the customer any favors by trying to take short cuts.
Accept the fact that the NEC requirements are there for safety and not your customers convenience.
Re: sub panel & se cable
Now I understand what you're asking better. My opinion would be sure, this would work in theory, but doing this for a customer in clear violation of NEC is a recipe for disaster. If something ever happened and you were sued, a lawyer would tear you apart considering this is not a compliant installation. Personally, I would never risk being sued and possibly going to jail for manslaughter just to save a customer some money. Never. The same customer you helped save money probably wouldn't hesitate to file a lawsuit if something went wrong. I don't believe there is a code compliant way to do what your asking.
Now I understand what you're asking better. My opinion would be sure, this would work in theory, but doing this for a customer in clear violation of NEC is a recipe for disaster. If something ever happened and you were sued, a lawyer would tear you apart considering this is not a compliant installation. Personally, I would never risk being sued and possibly going to jail for manslaughter just to save a customer some money. Never. The same customer you helped save money probably wouldn't hesitate to file a lawsuit if something went wrong. I don't believe there is a code compliant way to do what your asking.
luke warmwater
Senior Member
Re: sub panel & se cable
'Doing it the right way will be cheaper than the cheapest funeral'
How's that saying go? Oh yeah, something like...
'Doing it the right way will be cheaper than the cheapest funeral'
davedottcom
Senior Member
Re: sub panel & se cable
To me it doesn't sound like a "Repair". Why would someone have to repair an old panel by making it into a sub panel. It sounds more like they're building an addition and trying to cut corners! If that's the case they just need to finish what they started, money is not an issue, and have it done correctly...perhaps put off buying the plasma tv or Hot Tub so they can afford the necessary electrical work.
But "rigging" it? Come-on? Would you "rig" the brakes on their car and send them down the highway?
Dave
Shelco, if they are in desperate need of repairs that they can not afford to have done correctly, you could help them by asking local companies to volunteer help or donate materials or contact habitat for humanity, sometimes even Home Depot and Lowe's will donate material for people in desperate situations that simply can't afford to hire anyone.
To me it doesn't sound like a "Repair". Why would someone have to repair an old panel by making it into a sub panel. It sounds more like they're building an addition and trying to cut corners! If that's the case they just need to finish what they started, money is not an issue, and have it done correctly...perhaps put off buying the plasma tv or Hot Tub so they can afford the necessary electrical work.
But "rigging" it? Come-on? Would you "rig" the brakes on their car and send them down the highway?
Dave
Re: sub panel & se cable
Let me be clear!! I am not looking to cut corners or do anything that is illegal or dangerous. This is a good customer and they want to avoid tearing up walls so I told them that I would check every conceivable option. I agree with all that is said and came to the same conclusions. With all the people on this board and all of the different situations that people have come across there may always be something that someone knows that others don't. I would never do anything to endanger a customer or my reputation. Just exploring all possibilities.
Let me be clear!! I am not looking to cut corners or do anything that is illegal or dangerous. This is a good customer and they want to avoid tearing up walls so I told them that I would check every conceivable option. I agree with all that is said and came to the same conclusions. With all the people on this board and all of the different situations that people have come across there may always be something that someone knows that others don't. I would never do anything to endanger a customer or my reputation. Just exploring all possibilities.
Re: sub panel & se cable
Dave
That is not the situation at all. they have a 100 amp service and want to upgrade to a 200 amp and put it in a different location. They want to simply use the one they have now as a sub panel and use the new for Central A/C. No one is rigging anything.
Dave
That is not the situation at all. they have a 100 amp service and want to upgrade to a 200 amp and put it in a different location. They want to simply use the one they have now as a sub panel and use the new for Central A/C. No one is rigging anything.
allenwayne
Senior Member
Re: sub panel & se cable
Sounds like this thread is kin to customer didn`t burry enough conductors.Same senario and just as dangerous.
In most states if you install a violation inspected or not that is potentially lethal and something goes wrong and someone dies aside from what you have to live with day to day,you might grow old behind bars
Where do I get this is from my time in New york Transit authority where a road car inspector cut out more than 1/2 of the air brakes to a train and that was the max allowed 7 died in the wreck and he got 25 years.Different senario same results.Like allowing a pvc cut in box that won`t fit and cutting the back off to fit and it archs fire spreads and who is at fault.The installer and the license holder so double trouble
Sounds like this thread is kin to customer didn`t burry enough conductors.Same senario and just as dangerous.
In most states if you install a violation inspected or not that is potentially lethal and something goes wrong and someone dies aside from what you have to live with day to day,you might grow old behind bars
Where do I get this is from my time in New york Transit authority where a road car inspector cut out more than 1/2 of the air brakes to a train and that was the max allowed 7 died in the wreck and he got 25 years.Different senario same results.Like allowing a pvc cut in box that won`t fit and cutting the back off to fit and it archs fire spreads and who is at fault.The installer and the license holder so double trouble
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: sub panel & se cable
shelco
There is only one way to do this job and stay code compliant.
You need 2 hots, 1 Neutral, 1 EGC.
All four of those conductors must in the same raceway or cable.
shelco
There is only one way to do this job and stay code compliant.
You need 2 hots, 1 Neutral, 1 EGC.
All four of those conductors must in the same raceway or cable.
davedottcom
Senior Member
Re: sub panel & se cable
Ok, good, I'm glad to hear that.
Well then...did you consider converting the old panel to 120Volt?
You would have enough conductors to do that.
You could use the new panel for all the 240V circuits.
Otherwise..ya gotta Ripp-it-Out!
Dave
Ok, good, I'm glad to hear that.
Well then...did you consider converting the old panel to 120Volt?
You would have enough conductors to do that.
You could use the new panel for all the 240V circuits.
Otherwise..ya gotta Ripp-it-Out!
Dave
milwaukeesteve
Senior Member
- Location
- Milwaukee, WI
Re: sub panel & se cable
If you do install a new location 200A Panel and do refeed this existing panel, make sure you remove that old Grounding Electrode Conductor, too.
If you do install a new location 200A Panel and do refeed this existing panel, make sure you remove that old Grounding Electrode Conductor, too.
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