subpanels

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wolfman

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I just took over maint. in of some apartments,,, I just wanted to know if the subpanels have to be up graded since they do not have main breakers in them and the main breaker for each apartments are outside under meter and over 200 feet away.
 
Re: subpanels

The code is generally not retroactive applying to existing installations. Also, the installation may have been installed under the 230.72(C) Exception. :)
 
Re: subpanels

If there are 6 or fewer overcurrent devices at each unit there is no requirement for a main.

Seeing as you say the mains are outside that would mean they are (probably) accessible to the tenants.

[ April 27, 2004, 04:12 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
 
Re: subpanels

Accessible to the tenant, means accessible to the tenant without hunting outside and turning off everyone elses power.

Accessible to the tenant does not mean all switches accessible to all tenants.

More than six mains in a panel requires one ahead of all.

Now flame me, but prove your opinion.
 
Re: subpanels

Bennie I have nothing to prove, here is what the NEC rule says.

230.72(C) Access to Occupants. In a multiple-occupancy building, each occupant shall have access to the occupant?s service disconnecting means.
Click to expand...
Access no more, no less.

How about you prove your opinion? :D
 
Re: subpanels

The condo my mother lives in is set up exactly as stated by Bob. Basically, the 4 unit building has a six meter/main pack as the service equipment. (two are used for house equipment) All the unit (occupant) panels are main lug only.

The mains are labeled pretty well with unit number and provide a locking out means if necessary. Its not all that bad of a design. :)
 
Re: subpanels

Service mains can be padlocked closed. Unless the occupant has the key around their neck all time, this main is not accessible.

The occupants service panel can have two main breakers, one at the service point and one at the panel. The main at the panel must be a lower rating than the service main if service is locked.
 
Re: subpanels

Bennie you have brought up a good point.I have always looked at that hole in the arched piece of metal that is a breaker lock,yes the main can still trip but to denergize the feed to the 6 breakers you would have to shut it off and if there was a lock there, well..........And to have a main smaller than the sub panels rating.I won`t search but the list of violations is long.Allen
 
Re: subpanels

Apartments...hmmm. I see an apartment fire every other night on the news. Maybe forget the main and install EPO's in every unit.
 
Re: subpanels

With over 73,000 electrical fires last year in the US alone, and as many as 80% believed to be from arc-faults, maybe AFCI's can still be the answer even though noone seems to like them? :p

I agree that having one overall main is probably the better design, and with "six" being such an arbritary number, what happens at seven anyways? :confused:
 
Re: subpanels

Bryan, who's statistics say "as many as 80%" are from arc-faults? Can you provide some unbiased substantiation?

Roger
 
Re: subpanels

Originally posted by bphgravity:
With over 73,000 electrical fires last year in the US alone,
Click to expand...
Let's make that over 73,000 fires believed to be electrical.

I know, :) even if half of them are mistakenly blamed on electricity that still leaves 36,500.

I just have a hard time believing that there are 200 electrical fires per day.

I don't do that much wiring. :D
 
Re: subpanels

I would think most apartment fires would be human error such as cigarettes, cooking, kids with matches, etc...

Remember, electricity is the scape goat when there is no absolute proven cause.

Roger
 
Re: subpanels

Seems to me a main in every unit would be the better design. Why would a tenant need to access the main disconnect(s), unless it's panic mode?
 
Re: subpanels

Originally posted by brentp:
Seems to me a main in every unit would be the better design. Why would a tenant need to access the main disconnect(s), unless it's panic mode?
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Do we want untrained people hanging around trying to shut power off, or would the FD just want you to make a quick exit and let them deal with it?

Life or property?

Not even worth thinking about, grab the family and make tracks.

I do like the EPO idea and I happen to have some EPO buttons in the cellar, now I will have to get a shunt trip main. :D
 
Re: subpanels

iwire,

What's the intent of 230.72(C)?

Is it to allow a tenant to shut off the main to do a little DIY wiring? :)

I guess shunt trips would be out of the question since there's dollar signs attached. ;)
 
Re: subpanels

As far as apartments, I also question why a tenant would need access to the "Main"

Roger
 
Re: subpanels

Originally posted by brentp:
iwire,

What's the intent of 230.72(C)?

Is it to allow a tenant to shut off the main to do a little DIY wiring?
Click to expand...
I do not know, but as you can padlock on a service disconnect I never looked at it as a EPO.

A common practice around here for businesses that have an outside disconnect.

Here the FD is very likely to call the POCO to kill power to a structure.
 
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