Suggestion

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bthielen

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This NEC? Forum is for those in the electrical and related industries.
Questions of a "How-To" nature by persons not involved in the electrical industry will be removed without notice.
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I fully understand the need for this statement. This forum is not intended as a tool for teaching DYERS however, would it be a good idea to augment this statement to suggest that the originator of the thread get in contact with a local electrical contractor? This would seem a little less harsh and be proactive at the same time, possibly detering potential disasters.

Just a thought,

Bob
 
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Not a bad idea. We (the moderators and the forum owner) thought about that, and about offering links to web sites that do support the DIY. We concluded that this forum (and in particular its owner) should not take on the risk of facing a ?Well, they told me I could (or that I should) . . .? statement in court. It might be worth re-visiting.
 
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I like it just the way that it is. :) As long as it keeps DIY'ers away then we all can enjoy the vast knowledge and teachings that this forum has. :) If that statement helps keep this site free of DIY'ers, then I'm all for it. I don't think that its harsh. We are all adults and we shouldn't get hurt feelings.
If I went onto an aviation site or a deep water dive site and started asking questions as to "how to" and the moderator/members told me that they would not entertain my questions because the site was not set up for that...then I would just have to go elsewhere. But that site could be assured that I could not sue them because they would not teach me "how to" over the Internet.
 
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Here is the way I feel about the subject of DYS.
We all at one time or another have had to do things our self and some of us even had to break down and read the directions or ask for help :eek: (the unmanly thing)
While I understand the fear of being sued. and as of this having a policy of not giving instructions to DYS'ers. As a way to maybe get them to get a qualified person to do the job instead I think a little common sense needs to be used when we discover that the poster is a DYS. Remember we are trying to get these people to hire people like us to do the work they need to have done safely. So I think some of us need to use some better wording when responding to these post as some I have seen lately come right off rude And I wouldn't think they would ever want to hire an electrician again if that was our attitude. and that's what they are probably thinking.

Also I have seen some threads from home owners/Builders being responded to in the same way which I don't understand. when these home owners come here to ask a simple question because they are concerned about some work their electrician did. I think they should have their questions answered as they ultimately are our boss's as they are the one's that are paying the bill. and if they need a little assurance that the work that their electrician is doing is going to be safe then I don't see no harm in allowing them to ask these questions. At least they did hire an electrician and might just have a question why something was done in a certain way. One thing about most home owners is they hire us because they have a fear of electricity and maybe knows someone that was injured or even killed by it. so these type of home owners are the ones that will take the time to look for sites like this to get a few answers to alleviate some of that fear.

Just somthing to get off my mind.
 
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and if they need a little assurance that the work that their electrician is doing is going to be safe then I don't see no harm in allowing them to ask these questions.
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Wayne,

That's a tough call. I agree with your thoughts to some degree, but generally speaking someone outside the trade usually cannot describe a situation correctly using the proper terminology. (And there are also those posing as the concerned Owner just to get their questions answered too)

The quessing that goes on here when we don't have all the info could be causing some EC problems too. Much bad (incorrect) advice is given and taken simply because the person asking does not know what to ask or what details are important enough to include.

We hear about the 'Bad' advice the guy at the Hardware Store or Home Center gave all the time, and have to constantly justify ourselves when what we say or do is different. Most of the time we assume these people are giving out bad advice, but in reality, we don't really know what these other people were asked.

IMO, If they are really concerned their best bet is to ask the local AHJ or get someone to actually look at the situation.

Bill
 
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would it be a good idea to augment this statement to suggest that the originator of the thread get in contact with a local electrical contractor?
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Bob,

Not a bad idea, but many would see this as harsh too. In many places a person can do their own Electrical work legally. Whether they should be doing it is another question entirely. Sometimes it's quite obvious that someone doesn't have a clue, other times it's not.

IMO, the statement we have is about as non-judgemental as we can get while trying to maintain a Forum on a professional level.

Bill
 
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Sounds like I have been misunderstood. I did not intend to suggest answering "how to" questions from a DIYer, or professional for that matter. I was trying to suggest that before closing our ears and shutting the door, why not offer one last courteous bit of advice; that they should contact their local professional for their own safety and legal responsibility. How could anyone file suit then?

No response can sometimes be as bad as a poor response. For example, if one witnesses a crime and does nothing, they are guilty of failure to react and charges may be filed.

Some of the responses I see at this sight seem to suggest that a Do It Yourselfer is also uninformed. Not having a license does not always imply incompetence. I have worked alongside Electrical and Mechanical Engineers that couldn?t make the cut. If it wasn't for the DIYers, harnessing electricity would never have been discovered, nor would the wheel, hammer,...

There was a poster on the wall in the counselor's office at a school I attended that seems to fit here. It read, "Before I learned how to ride a bicycle, I did not know how to ride a bicycle." None of us would be where we are today but for the training we received from someone else.

Thanks,

Bob
 
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Bob good choice of words !!!! We were not born Electrichans but strived to become one.DIYS`ers need to stick with the big orange guy in that aisle.We are here to learn and get pertinent info from each other.Hopefully we can find a link to direct them to.I haven`t looked but I will !!! But guys we paid our dues and to the guys that are paying them now well,all I can say is that I wished the internet was there in the 70`s/80`s I would be alot further than I am.Today there is a whole new world open that we didn`t have.I still stand behind my ONE statement: THE ONLY DUMB QUESTION IS THE ONE YOU DON`T ASK !!!!!!!
ALLEN,JUST AN OLD SPARKY :D
 
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Just something to think about.

At IPL, I am considered to be the NEC expert and anyone with Code questions are referred to me. We used to answer anyone's questions until this happened. We now answer no one's Code questions unless he is an electrician, engineer, or an architect.

A customer called in and wanted to know what size wire to use for a 100 ampere service on his garage. This was around 1975 or 1980. He was told to use #4 Cu. THW and he would be fine.

After the inspector turned him down, he told him that the guy at the light company told him to use this wire. The inspector told him that his wire was only good for 55 amperes and told him to contact us again for an explanation. It turns out that this guy used #4 Al. TW and didn't understand the importance of the wire material and type letters. On top of that, he was using the garage for a small business.

After he complained loudly enough, we hired an electrical contractor to fix the mess. I wonder how this site is any different? :confused:
 
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Maybe everyone should be required to pass a 10 question, timed quiz before they are allowed to register for the Forum. ;)

No one here is required to pay for the advice or suggestions made by the members of this forum. I think that is a significant point. Responding to a persons question is different than selling them something.
 
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Yes it is a good idea.At work we compiled a quick easy way to weed out the helpers trying to get a journeyman job as part of the initial application.Just 5 simple questions;

1-How do you reverse rotation on a 3 phase motor
2-what is the take up on a 1 in EMT 90
3-A 3.8 kw wall oven needs to be protected by
what size breaker.
4-What is the max.height of a main breaker
5-How many countertop receptacles are required
on a penninsular in a residential kitchen

This has sent allot of people leaving the building without ever filling out the application.
;)
 
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When I found this site I was very exited to have a way to continue to learn about my trade.

The licensed electrician, who originally taught me, taught me "how", but not really "why".
I don't post too many questions, usually I just read alot of the posts(which I've learned alot of the "why" from). When I haven't been able to understand a topic, I've asked questions and you folks have graciously clarified for me.

My (limited) electrical knowledge and experience are strictly residential , and I wouldn't be able to answer any questions about commercial or industrial codes, and know nothing about motors.

I guess I shouldn't be able to make use of the incredible wealth of experience and knowledge that I've found on this forum.

Maybe, since this is the NEC FORUM, any and all questions or statements that are not specifically code related should be edited or closed by the moderators.


Yes, I agree, if Mr. bank teller, Mr. auto mechanic, Mr. psychiatrist, etc, etc wants to come to this forum to ask electrical questions we should probably suggest that they hire a qualified electrician.

What about the kid who just got hired by an EC and wants to learn this trade? Should you not allow him into this vast amount of knowledge and experience?


sincerely remaining totally teachable,
Mike
 
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Mike, while I understand your concerns, I disagree with your understanding. An apprentice is very welcome to this forum and so are other electrical professionals. The key is that the electrical professionals know what their limitations are and will not generally exceed their knowledge and experience.

A DIY doesn't know how much he doesn't know and when he is over his head. Additionally, a DIY doesn't even know what questions he should be asking. That combination makes for a very dangerous person. Do we really want to propagate this type of work? :confused:
 
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Totally correct.We have paid our dues and have a vast amount of knowledge maybe the idea of pre testing for this site isn`t a bad idea Keeps the DIYS`rs away.As far as apprentices go,they are our future teach them.
 
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