Sump pump relay strange behavior.

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On one of the controllers I have done that. I had someone lift up the floats while I checked for continuity at the terminals on the controller. One float activates a relay for the high water alarm. The other two floats operate a second relay for starting and stopping the pump via a contactor.

The 3rd relay only operates when the switch is turned to “hand”.
 
Mustwin351 said:
On one of the controllers I have done that. I had someone lift up the floats while I checked for continuity at the terminals on the controller. One float activates a relay for the high water alarm. The other two floats operate a second relay for starting and stopping the pump via a contactor.

The 3rd relay only operates when the switch is turned to “hand”.
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Mustwin351, I'm going to say it can't work like that. The stop float switch should only drop out, and open the stop relay contacts, when pumping down. It should only be de-energized when the sump is pumped down to lowest allowable level. As water rises, run float makes and pulls in run relay. Run relay establishes holding circuit, in addition to pulling in pump contactor, and continues to stay energized even though run float breaks as water level goes down. Run relay only drops out when stop relay (and float) drop out.

I'd re-makeup all the wire nut connections. Frankly I'm not crazy about seeing them there at all. You have a double pole breaker and contactor so you could run the neutral through them if desired. Next, I'd replace the "ice cube relays", assuming they aren't soldered in, with ones that have built-in LEDS so you know when they are energized.

I'd prefer to do away with the PCB and add a control transformer to make floats and relays 24 VAC. You can also add a double pole phase monitor that will set up high level alarm in a "loss of power" condition. Ideally that would go to a building annunciation panel.

In short you can make this much more reliable. Not sure if that is particularly important. Roto float makes a superior float switch (type S). The Grainger ones are garbage.
 
181013-2059 EDT

So far there is no circuit diagram of the relay circuit.

Fundamentally the pump down circuit should consist of:

1. A high level float switch, H, that closes at the high level. This directly energizes a relay R.

2. In parallel with H is a series combination of the low level switch, L, that closes when above the low level, and a normally open contact from the relay, R, that closes when R is energized, thus, providing a holding circuit when the high level is reached.

3. This an electrically held memory circuit. It will drop out on loss of primary power or when the water level is below both the high and low floats. After dropping out R will not be re-energized until the high level float is made.

This is very easy to troubleshoot.

A relay contact will not weld together if not carrying current. A welded contact should only make the motor run continuously.

.
 
Russs57 said:
Mustwin351, I'm going to say it can't work like that. The stop float switch should only drop out, and open the stop relay contacts, when pumping down. It should only be de-energized when the sump is pumped down to lowest allowable level. As water rises, run float makes and pulls in run relay. Run relay establishes holding circuit, in addition to pulling in pump contactor, and continues to stay energized even though run float breaks as water level goes down. Run relay only drops out when stop relay (and float) drop out.

I'd re-makeup all the wire nut connections. Frankly I'm not crazy about seeing them there at all. You have a double pole breaker and contactor so you could run the neutral through them if desired. Next, I'd replace the "ice cube relays", assuming they aren't soldered in, with ones that have built-in LEDS so you know when they are energized.

I'd prefer to do away with the PCB and add a control transformer to make floats and relays 24 VAC. You can also add a double pole phase monitor that will set up high level alarm in a "loss of power" condition. Ideally that would go to a building annunciation panel.

In short you can make this much more reliable. Not sure if that is particularly important. Roto float makes a superior float switch (type S). The Grainger ones are garbage.
Click to expand...

if I remember correctly when I ohmed out the terminals that connected the floats the stop float is wired in series with the start float. So in order for the pump to run both floats need to be floating. In order to keep the pump from short cycling the stop float is attached at the lowest point on a pole in the sump pit and the start is mounted higher up.

Yeah I wasn’t thrilled with the grainger one but didn’t have the time to find a better quality model. And yes the lousy relays are soldered to the board.

can you post me a link to the model you recommend?
 
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On everything I have seen, the HOA switch will not cycle power, meaning none of the control relays will change state.

The hand side will typically bypass all relays and float switches and bring power directly to pump contactor coil. At that point only overload relay and, if they are present, phase monitor and thermally embedded switch come into play.

What we do know is going to off, then hand, made the pump run. Going to off drops pump contactor and pump load but shouldn't drop out anything else. After running the pump in hand it then was able to run in auto again.

Perhaps pump contactor was mechanically hung up? Perhaps incoming power (wire nuts?) could carry light loads but not full pump load? Doesn't name plate show FLA at 26 with what appears to be 120 VAC wiring with #12 AWG?
 
Russs57 said:
On everything I have seen, the HOA switch will not cycle power, meaning none of the control relays will change state.

The hand side will typically bypass all relays and float switches and bring power directly to pump contactor coil. At that point only overload relay and, if they are present, phase monitor and thermally embedded switch come into play.

What we do know is going to off, then hand, made the pump run. Going to off drops pump contactor and pump load but shouldn't drop out anything else. After running the pump in hand it then was able to run in auto again.

Perhaps pump contactor was mechanically hung up? Perhaps incoming power (wire nuts?) could carry light loads but not full pump load? Doesn't name plate show FLA at 26 with what appears to be 120 VAC wiring with #12 AWG?
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Honestly, I have no idea what the nameplate rating for the pump is. I simply replaced the control board with the same one in the original box to get it working quickly. The pump is under a grate about 6 feet down And I didn’t bring my swimming trunks that day.

also the hoa switch on hand does pull in a ice cube relay which pulls in the contactor.
 
ActionDave said:
Something wrong with the control boards in two different panels, in two different buildings, and one of the boards is a new replacement?
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That’s correct Dave. That is why I am stumped. I will investigate more on Monday and see if any other of the other pump controllers are having issues.

Also can anyone recommend a better sump pump controller? Preferably one that utilizes 3 floats and has replaceable parts that are not soldered to a board.
 
Mustwin351 said:
That’s correct Dave. That is why I am stumped. I will investigate more on Monday and see if any other of the other pump controllers are having issues.
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I was responding to retired.
Also can anyone recommend a better sump pump controller? Preferably one that utilizes 3 floats and has replaceable parts that are not soldered to a board.
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I wouldn't be so quick to replace the controller you have now. They are all about the same.
 
This float system is nothing more than a glorified 3 wire control.

Here's what we know.

The water came up and closed the normally open contact on the stop float.
Water continued to rise and closed the normally open contact on the run float.
Did the pump start at that point? Evidently not because the basement was full of water.
The water rose even higher yet. Was the high level alarm blaring when the OP opened the basement door? I hope it was but haven't heard.
Then the switch was thrown to off then to hand.
In hand the voltage should go directly to the coil and evidently it did because the contactor pulled in and the motor ran.
He then switched it back to auto and the contactor pulled in and it ran without disturbing anything in the field wiring. What does tha tell us ?
It tells us the stop float contact is still closed and the run float contact is still closed as they should be because they are both still floating in the deep water. If either of them weren't operating correctly the contactor would not have pulled in in the auto position.

That leads me to believe it may possibly have something to do with the electronic overload.
I'm sure it's set to auto reset, but, maybe it overloaded enough times to put the system in lockout,then, there possibly may be some connection where removing the power when going to off then back to auto somehow reset that lockout and it started to rock and roll again.

It's hard to troubleshoot something on line,but, I wouldn't be surprised if you don't have the same issue with the new board until you get to the root cause of what actually took place.

I don't think it was a stuck relay, or Something mechanical that magically became unstuck by simply going from auto to off to hand then back to auto.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Jap>
 
jap said:
This float system is nothing more than a glorified 3 wire control.

Here's what we know.

The water came up and closed the normally open contact on the stop float.
Water continued to rise and closed the normally open contact on the run float.
Did the pump start at that point? Evidently not because the basement was full of water.
The water rose even higher yet. Was the high level alarm blaring when the OP opened the basement door? I hope it was but haven't heard.
Then the switch was thrown to off then to hand.
In hand the voltage should go directly to the coil and evidently it did because the contactor pulled in and the motor ran.
He then switched it back to auto and the contactor pulled in and it ran without disturbing anything in the field wiring. What does tha tell us ?
It tells us the stop float contact is still closed and the run float contact is still closed as they should be because they are both still floating in the deep water. If either of them weren't operating correctly the contactor would not have pulled in in the auto position.

That leads me to believe it may possibly have something to do with the electronic overload.
I'm sure it's set to auto reset, but, maybe it overloaded enough times to put the system in lockout,then, there possibly may be some connection where removing the power when going to off then back to auto somehow reset that lockout and it started to rock and roll again.

It's hard to troubleshoot something on line,but, I wouldn't be surprised if you don't have the same issue with the new board until you get to the root cause of what actually took place.

I don't think it was a stuck relay, or Something mechanical that magically became unstuck by simply going from auto to off to hand then back to auto.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Jap>
Click to expand...

Great thoughts Jap and enjoyed your analysis. As far as I can tell from looking at the board and the incomplete wiring diagram provided that there is no electronic overload. The only overload protection it has are two 2 amp fuses. One for the alarm and one for the control circuit.

The link again for the diagram: https://www.grainger.com/ec/pdf/2PZG2_1.pdf
 
Mustwin351 said:
Great thoughts Jap and enjoyed your analysis. As far as I can tell from looking at the board and the incomplete wiring diagram provided that there is no electronic overload. The only overload protection it has are two 2 amp fuses. One for the alarm and one for the control circuit.

The link again for the diagram: https://www.grainger.com/ec/pdf/2PZG2_1.pdf
Click to expand...

You have ‘No’ wires on J1:5 and J1:10 leading someplace else. A jumper only.
 
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