Sump pump

[ramsy]

Here in NJ GFCI protection is not required for a single receptacle serving a sump pump.

Exact same wording in 2017 NEC 620.85 (last sentance) for "sump pumps" in elevator shafts.

From the Wayne Installation manual. "FOR ADDED SAFETY the receptacle must be protected with a ground fault circuit interrupter (GFCI)."

Read more: https://manuals.plus/wayne/submersible-sump-pump-system-manual#ixzz7aWaSirz2

My boss told me to always follow the code. and the instruction manual.

If you ever have to go on a witness stand and answer questions. you're going to have a lot easier time of it.

Have dealt with Zoeller sump pumps. Most instructions exclude direct hard-wire without GFCI.

"2. Make certain that the ground fault interrupter protected receptacle or control box is within the reach of the pump’s power supply cord. DO NOT USE AN EXTENSION CORD."

Except for Zoeller models 429x Agricultural, & 900 Prepackaged systems, which don't require separate GFCI-protected feeders.

 

[Ponchik]

I always have the GFCI in the living space and a regular receptacle directly above each pump. The GFCI for sump pumps are always audible. So when it trips it makes an audible sound, Unless the breaker trips then the sump pump's alarm makes a noise when the water level is high enough.

 

[jap]

This is one of those Code requirements that makes you scratch your head and wonder what the CMP's were thinking when they wrote it. Now granted, they can always fall back on "It's for the safety of personnel" position to justify their opinion. However, while they are sitting back on their lawn chairs somewhere and sipping a Corona, someone's basement is filling up with water because the GFCI tripped. The same Code rule or intention) applies to basement sewer ejector pumps (no need to go into description on what happens when that GFCI trips). And, of course, there's that one time when your wife comes home in a rain or snow storm and the garage door opener doesn't work BECAUSE THE GFCI TRIPPED, is one of my favorites. If that HO can't get an electrician to change out that receptacle (BECAUSE IT'S CODE REQUIREMENT) she'll get her husband to do it, and probably not properly or safely at that.

While I'm all in favor of safety, I think these types of Code requirements need to be further examined and new or better requirements explored and put in place. Just my 2 cents worth.

The power went out at our house not long ago, and, my wife and kid (although they knew how to manually disengage the garage door and open it) they didn't.

They simply took my truck to town that was parked out in the shed and I ended up with a full tank of gas out of the deal.



Although power outages can be detrimental in some cases, being without power for what you're indicating above generally don't constitute the end of the world.

Just sayin.

JAP>

 

[tallgirl]

Another thing to think about, is not placing two pumps for the same thing on the same circuit. That's just a bad idea.

And not placing the 12V charger for the standby pump on the same circuit “because the battery will be charged, so it’s okay.”

 

[tallgirl]

I always have the GFCI in the living space and a regular receptacle directly above each pump. The GFCI for sump pumps are always audible. So when it trips it makes an audible sound, Unless the breaker trips then the sump pump's alarm makes a noise when the water level is high enough.

I was today many days old when I learned GFCIs that go beep are a thing.

 

[ptonsparky]

I was today many days old when I learned GFCIs that go beep are a thing.

Only if someone can actually hear it beep. I can't. With aids I need to be very close. Without aids, nada, nothing, nope.

 

[tallgirl]

Only if someone can actually hear it beep. I can't. With aids I need to be very close. Without aids, nada, nothing, nope.

I'd never rely on it beeping. I've not wired up the "flood" sensors yet, and I can't get a company to put in my backup sump yet, but the fact they exist for something like that is cool.

 

[infinity]

I'd never rely on it beeping. I've not wired up the "flood" sensors yet, and I can't get a company to put in my backup sump yet, but the fact they exist for something like that is cool.

Unless you have a well a water driven backup pump is a great solution. Battery backup electric pumps are useless if the power goes out in a major storm.

 

[tallgirl]

Unless you have a well a water driven backup pump is a great solution. Battery backup electric pumps are useless if the power goes out in a major storm.

I'm not sure what I'd use for battery backup, but any storm and power outage that's more than several hours of running a pump is one that I'm just going to let flood insurance handle.

 

[retirede]

Unless you have a well a water driven backup pump is a great solution. Battery backup electric pumps are useless if the power goes out in a major storm.

I know several people here with water-driven backup. During a storm last summer, power was out and there was so much rain that the backups couldn’t keep up. Apparently, the capacity of the water-driven pump is nowhere near the normal pump.

 

[petersonra]

the water driven pumps are not really pumps. they are just eductors that run city water past an orifice to generate a vacuum that sucks up water.

they can generally remove about 2 gallons of water from the sump for every gallon of water used, but YMMV.

the amount of water they can remove is related to how much water you can get from the city through your tiny pipes.

most regular sump pumps are able to pump 30-40 gpm. you would need 15-20 gpm of city water to do that with an eductor and most don't have that available.

 

[VirutalElectrician]

I'm not sure what I'd use for battery backup, but any storm and power outage that's more than several hours of running a pump is one that I'm just going to let flood insurance handle.

My sump runs almost constantly for several weeks in the spring melt. A power outtage for more than an hour would hurt. A cheap dual fuel inverter generator can be had for less than the insurance deductible.

 

[tallgirl]

My sump runs almost constantly for several weeks in the spring melt. A power outtage for more than an hour would hurt. A cheap dual fuel inverter generator can be had for less than the insurance deductible.

That sounds like you need to need slope some dirt away from your house, or else you've got some seriously porous soil around your basement. Unless by "continuous" you mean something like "5 or 10 minutes a day, every day, for several weeks."

I need to find a way to test my pump by dumping a bunch of water down it ever few months because mine pretty much doesn't run. Much of ever.

 

[VirutalElectrician]

That sounds like you need to need slope some dirt away from your house, or else you've got some seriously porous soil around your basement. Unless by "continuous" you mean something like "5 or 10 minutes a day, every day, for several weeks."

I need to find a way to test my pump by dumping a bunch of water down it ever few months because mine pretty much doesn't run. Much of ever.

Run, off for 10 seconds, run again. Grade is fine. Just a high water table here.

 

[Sea Nile]

I have a primary sump pump, and another 12v battery back up sump pump, both are in the same hole in the basement floor.

My battery back up one is a Basement Watchdog brand. Instead of using their battery, I put in a deep cycle marine battery. Much bigger and a lot more amp hours. I suppose if I was worried about the battery dieing I could have connected a second battery in parallel.

As far as the GFCI tripping, I have an idea. I would extend the circuit down stream of the GFCI to a receptacle mounted high on the wall in a hallway upstairs and put one of those emergency lights that come on when the power goes out. This way if the GFCI tripped, it would light up, but it would also light up the hallway during a utility power outages.

For garage door openers, a lot of the newer ones have a battery built in to them. Mine does. The light won't come on if it looses power, but the motor still works.

 

[kwired]

Run, off for 10 seconds, run again. Grade is fine. Just a high water table here.

Only a 10 second "off time" suggests either an extreme water infiltration condition, or some sort of malfunction.

How long is each run interval?

How much water is being discharged when it is running?

Is float control (most likely that is the control) able to move as intended or is it hanging up on something?

 

[infinity]

Only a 10 second "off time" suggests either an extreme water infiltration condition, or some sort of malfunction.

How long is each run interval?

How much water is being discharged when it is running?

Is float control (most likely that is the control) able to move as intended or is it hanging up on something?

Around here also a normal operation depending on the height of the ground water and the time of the year. The Liberty pump that I have uses a slide float switch mounted to the side of the pump so the water only needs to raise a few inches and it will cycle on and off. When the ground water level is high the pit can refill in just seconds. One solution is put a external float switch mounted about a foot above the pump which has an adjustable timer so that it will run even after the float switch is off. This allows the pit to fill to a much higher level before the pump turns on.

After very heavy rains it may run for a few days before going back to normal. During Ida it ran continuously for about 24 hours just staying ahead of the overflow.

 

[kwired]

Seems to me if water is coming in that fast, and is considered normal, you have little margin for errors or malfunction. Abnormally heavy rains or other abnormal flooding conditions I can understand it not being designed for though, that stuff just happens.

I would think for normal expected conditions you would want at least several minutes at a minimum to even a few hours before next run interval to be typical. If it is just seconds or even just a couple minutes, you have too small of a pump, too small of a sump, both, for the conditions and/or might even want to at least have a backup pump integrated somehow and some sort of notification system for malfunctions. Backup probably should be on an alternating setup like they often do with waste water lift stations.

 

[ptonsparky]

Seems to me if water is coming in that fast, and is considered normal, you have little margin for errors or malfunction. Abnormally heavy rains or other abnormal flooding conditions I can understand it not being designed for though, that stuff just happens.

I would think for normal expected conditions you would want at least several minutes at a minimum to even a few hours before next run interval to be typical. If it is just seconds or even just a couple minutes, you have too small of a pump, too small of a sump, both, for the conditions and/or might even want to at least have a backup pump integrated somehow and some sort of notification system for malfunctions. Backup probably should be on an alternating setup like they often do with waste water lift stations.

Sounds like a place for a VFD. Let's complicate things!

 

[petersonra]

This is for someone sump pump in their basement. A pump that's running 10 seconds on and 10 seconds off is running half of the time and that would seem to be way undersized either for the sump pump itself or the sump, or there's just way too much water getting into the sump.