superseding the NEC

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Corky Biggs

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Really need an expert here. I am in Afghanistan and we have a wager of an ice cream bar. I say the code at one time allowed an engineer to supersede the NEC. Is there anybody out there that can validate my claim? I have gone back a couple additions of the NEC and cannot find it. Please help me....Ice cream is very important here.
 
Maybe so, but not even an engineer can overrule an inspector. Some like to think they can, but in the end the inspector has the final say.
 
Corky Biggs said:
Really need an expert here. I am in Afghanistan and we have a wager of an ice cream bar. I say the code at one time allowed an engineer to supersede the NEC. Is there anybody out there that can validate my claim? I have gone back a couple additions of the NEC and cannot find it. Please help me....Ice cream is very important here.
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Where the NEC is adopted as law, only where the term engineering supervision is used. The 2011 edition uses the term 26 times. In context, a few of those instances simply require engineering supervision, as there is no otherwise explicit NEC requirement (such as structural integrity). Several of those instances are simply doubled from being both in the section title and body text.

So your claim is partially true... but I say you owe someone an ice cream bar :happyyes:

Welcome to the FORUM...
 
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kenaslan said:
Maybe so, but not even an engineer can overrule an inspector. Some like to think they can, but in the end the inspector has the final say.
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The actual inspector has no say in it at all. The AHJ has the say in a legalistic way. In practice it is not quite that simple as the inspector is the face of the AHJ and many people mistake the inspector for the AHJ.
 
petersonra said:
The actual inspector has no say in it at all. The AHJ has the say in a legalistic way. In practice it is not quite that simple as the inspector is the face of the AHJ and many people mistake the inspector for the AHJ.
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Many times the inspector thinks he or she is GOD. Grantor Of Decisions.
 
Corky Biggs said:
Really need an expert here. I am in Afghanistan and we have a wager of an ice cream bar. I say the code at one time allowed an engineer to supersede the NEC. Is there anybody out there that can validate my claim? I have gone back a couple additions of the NEC and cannot find it. Please help me....Ice cream is very important here.
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There are certain section(s) in the NEC where adjustments can be made based on engineering calculations. There are certain areas in the US where there is no local laws regulate a business enterprise, but it is expected that the business is supervising the installation for National Standards and law compliance. In these cases the Owner's Engineering Department is the AHJ, therefore can and will over-rule the NEC. Of course one has to keep in mind that these variances has to withstand legal scrutiny, but certainly there are sections of the Code where the conditions for the intent of prohibition does not exist in the specific case.
 
Smart $ said:
Where the NEC is adopted as law, only where the term engineering supervision is used. The 2011 edition uses the term 26 times. In context, a few of those instances simply require engineering supervision, as there is no otherwise explicit NEC requirement (such as structural integrity). Several of those instances are simply doubled from being both in the section title and body text.

So your claim is partially true... but I say you owe someone an ice cream bar :happyyes:

Welcome to the FORUM...
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So where the NEC is adopted and there is no enforcing or inspecting authority exist by statue, what happens?
 
weressl said:
So where the NEC is adopted and there is no enforcing or inspecting authority exist by statue, what happens?
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IMO the authority adopting the code is still the AHJ even if they do not inspect or enforce.

The entity doing the work would be responsible to comply with the adopted rules.
 
iwire said:
IMO the authority adopting the code is still the AHJ even if they do not inspect or enforce.
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That's what simple logic would dictate, however if they have NOT specifically defined so in statue, then you would find no Court of Law that would agree with that statement.

iwire said:
The entity doing the work would be responsible to comply with the adopted rules.
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See above. Here is the rub: since there are so many areas of the adopted rules that are subject to interpretation and the adopting Authority did NOT define who can perform such interpretation then following your logic the entity doing the work is also responsible to interpret.
 
weressl said:
OK, I'll bite. So, in your opinion, who is their AHJ?
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The city is, but partially for one of the two companies, as its premises is only partially within the city's corporation limit. The balance of the premises is under county jurisdiction.

weressl said:
So where the NEC is adopted and there is no enforcing or inspecting authority exist by statue, what happens?
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I give you this one because I don't know. There is no such area where I reside.

weressl said:
That's what simple logic would dictate, however if they have NOT specifically defined so in statue, then you would find no Court of Law that would agree with that statement.

See above. Here is the rub: since there are so many areas of the adopted rules that are subject to interpretation and the adopting Authority did NOT define who can perform such interpretation then following your logic the entity doing the work is also responsible to interpret.
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If I'm not mistaken (which I very well could be), WV places the onus on licensed Master Electricians.
 
weressl said:
That's what simple logic would dictate, however if they have NOT specifically defined so in statue, then you would find no Court of Law that would agree with that statement.
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Neither you or I can predict what a court would do.

By the same token we can't predict that a court would or would not approve an engineer deciding they are the AHJ.







Here is the rub: since there are so many areas of the adopted rules that are subject to interpretation and the adopting Authority did NOT define who can perform such interpretation then following your logic the entity doing the work is also responsible to interpret.
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In doing our jobs we both interpret the NEC to the best of our abilities, that does not make us the AHJ or even make us right in our interpretations.
 
Smart $ said:
The city is, but partially for one of the two companies, as its premises is only partially within the city's corporation limit. The balance of the premises is under county jurisdiction.


I give you this one because I don't know. There is no such area where I reside.


If I'm not mistaken (which I very well could be), WV places the onus on licensed Master Electricians.
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WV ?29-3B-2

(d) "Journeyman electrician" means a person qualified by at least four years of electrical work experience to do any work installing wires, conduits, apparatus, equipment, fixtures and other appliances, provided that this classification is not authorized to design electrical systems.

(f) "Master electrician" means a person with at least five years of electrical work experience, including experience in all phases of electrical wiring and installation, who is competent to design electrical systems, and to instruct and supervise the electrical work of journeyman electricians, apprentice electricians, and other related workers.

WV Legislative Rule ?87-2-2

2.1. "Master Electrician" - means a person with at least five (5) years of electrical work experience, including experience in all phases of electrical wiring and installation, who is competent to instruct and supervise the electrical work of Journeyman and Apprentice Electricians. A master electrician must have a comprehensive knowledge and understanding of the National Electrical Code, and the ability to read electrical plans, drawings and designs to calculate demand loads in compliance with the National Electrical Code.

2.2. "Journeyman Electrician" - means a person qualified by at least four (4) years of electrical work experience to do any work installing wires, conduits, apparatus, equipment, fixtures, and other appliances subject to supervision by a master electrician. A journeyman electrician shall have a knowledge and understanding of the National Electric Code as it pertains to the installation of wires, conduits, apparatus, equipment, fixtures and other appliances. A journeyman electrician cannot design electrical systems.

I did design work as a journeyman and submitted plans for electrical building permits (when required). But I was working for an entity that was not required to have any licensing for their electricians.

[A journeyman can work w/o the direct supervision of a Master. A Master or a Journeyman can directly supervise no more than three Apprentices.]

You must have a Master's license to apply for any inspector's test.

Class A Electrical Inspector's License (residential)

Successful completion of the International Code Council's (ICC) Test 2A OR NFPA Certified Electrical Inspector Examination AND possess a valid WV Master Electrician's License.

Class B Electrical Inspector's License (commercial)

Successful completion of the Internation[al] Code Council's (ICC) Test 2A and 2B OR NFPA Certified Electrical Inspector Examination AND possess a valid WV Master Electrician's License.

Class C Electrical Inspector's License (plan review)

Successful completion of the Internation[al] Code Council's (ICC) Test 2A, 2B and 2C AND possess a valid WV Master Electrician's License.

ALL classifications MUST, in addition to a valid Master Electrician's License, obtain and maintain Errors & Omissions Insurance (Professional Liability) in the minimum amount of $250,000.00.

The City/town code official would be the AHJ.
The fire marshal would be the AHJ.
 
From what I understand, an engineer can supercede the code as long as he doesn't violate any of the restrictions.

IOW, he can enhance or add to what is required but he can't do away with the basics.
 
Stevareno said:
From what I understand, an engineer can supercede the code as long as he doesn't violate any of the restrictions.

IOW, he can enhance or add to what is required but he can't do away with the basics.
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That would be exceed... not supercede (i.e. a variant spelling of supersede).
 
I have a problem with the way the bet is worded.
Corky Biggs said:
I say the code at one time allowed an engineer to supersede the NEC.
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As others have mentioned, there are things that an engineer can do that are above and beyond what a person who simply uses the tables can do. There are several examples, and they usually say something about "under engineering supervision." But I would not call that "superseding the NEC," since it is the NEC itself that tells us that an engineer can do those things.
 
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