superseding the NEC

[weressl]

Neither you or I can predict what a court would do.

By the same token we can't predict that a court would or would not approve an engineer deciding they are the AHJ.

We certainly do (self)regulate our own actions to be moral, ethical and lawfull. I think you may misconstrue what I wrote. It is not the engineer who decides that he is the AHJ, but rather the lawfull circumstances - such as deferrence by the municipality - and the employers (Owner) assignment of this task to the engineer(s).

In doing our jobs we both interpret the NEC to the best of our abilities, that does not make us the AHJ or even make us right in our interpretations.

See above.

 

[mkgrady]

I have a problem with the way the bet is worded. As others have mentioned, there are things that an engineer can do that are above and beyond what a person who simply uses the tables can do. There are several examples, and they usually say something about "under engineering supervision." But I would not call that "superseding the NEC," since it is the NEC itself that tells us that an engineer can do those things.

I agree. That's called being compliant with the NEC

 

[weressl]

We have a couple companies in my area that believe this to be true of their facilities... with emphasis on believe.

NFPA 70B
A.3.2.2 Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ). The phrase ?authority having jurisdiction,? or its acronym AHJ, is used in NFPA documents in a broad manner, since jurisdictions and approval agencies vary, as do their responsibilities. Where public safety is primary, the authority having jurisdiction may be a federal, state, local, or other regional department or individual such as a fire chief; fire marshal; chief of a fire prevention bureau, labor department, or health department; building official; electrical inspector; or others having statutory authority. For insurance purposes, an insurance inspection department, rating bureau, or other insurance company representative may be the authority having jurisdiction. In many circumstances, the property owner or his or her designated agent assumes the role of the authority having jurisdiction; at government installations, the commanding officer or departmental official may be the authority having jurisdiction.

 

[Smart $]

NFPA 70B
A.3.2.2 Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ). The phrase ?authority having jurisdiction,? or its acronym AHJ, is used in NFPA documents in a broad manner, since jurisdictions and approval agencies vary, as do their responsibilities. Where public safety is primary, the authority having jurisdiction may be a federal, state, local, or other regional department or individual such as a fire chief; fire marshal; chief of a fire prevention bureau, labor department, or health department; building official; electrical inspector; or others having statutory authority. For insurance purposes, an insurance inspection department, rating bureau, or other insurance company representative may be the authority having jurisdiction. In many circumstances, the property owner or his or her designated agent assumes the role of the authority having jurisdiction; at government installations, the commanding officer or departmental official may be the authority having jurisdiction.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen. FWIW, the State of Ohio does not "officially" recognize NFPA 70B. The two companies I mentioned are 'big" international companies with legal resources "greater" than the city's. Need I say more...???

 

[weressl]

I'm not saying it doesn't happen. FWIW, the State of Ohio does not "officially" recognize NFPA 70B. The two companies I mentioned are 'big" international companies with legal resources "greater" than the city's. Need I say more...???

The implication in your note was not that it does not happen, but that if the Companies decide to follow that course they are wrong.

"We have a couple companies in my area that believe this to be true of their facilities... with emphasis on believe. "

I cited the NFPA to demonstrate that in their interpretation - and you can be pretty certain that it was legally wetted - such position is one of the available alternatives.

 

[Smart $]

The implication in your note was not that it does not happen, but that if the Companies decide to follow that course they are wrong.

"We have a couple companies in my area that believe this to be true of their facilities... with emphasis on believe. "

I cited the NFPA to demonstrate that in their interpretation - and you can be pretty certain that it was legally wetted - such position is one of the available alternatives.

I made no implication... I stated fact. You believe as the companies do. The bottom line is they are in the State of Ohio, which has no statutory allowance for these companies to serve as their own AHJ (that I'm aware of). Their is no such llegal alternative here (I should say there, because I'm currently a few states away). The city recently brought suit against the one company for bringing in out of state electricians (from down your way... and if you can read between lines, you know what I mean) and working them unlicensed. I haven't been in touch lately with my colleagues in-the-know, so I do not know the outcome. Nevertheless, I can deduce from the city bringing suit that the company is not legally vetted to be its own AHJ.

[edit to add] The city doesn't much care about the other company because it uses a local NECA contractor and licensed electricians.