survey: bonding hot and cold water

[iwire]

Re: survey: bonding hot and cold water

I just must look at things to simply.

Article 100

Bonding (Bonded). The permanent joining of metallic parts to form an electrically conductive path that ensures electrical continuity and the capacity to conduct safely any current likely to be imposed.

250.104(A)(1) General. Metal water piping system(s) installed in or attached to a building or structure shall be bonded to the service equipment enclosure, the grounded conductor at the service, the grounding electrode conductor where of sufficient size, or to the one or more grounding electrodes used. The bonding jumper(s) shall be sized in accordance with Table 250.66 except as permitted in 250.104(A)(2) and (A)(3).

Now can anyone show me what part of that requires the hot and cold to have additional bonding jumpers.

If there is section insulating matrial bond around it, if not it is bonded.

I do not see how any inspector can require bonding jumpers on every water heater.

I have a whole house water filter it has a plastic body obviously this needs a bonding jumper and it does.

My tankless hot water heater has no bonding jumper you can see that the hot and cold are solidly connected to cast iron.

Would a CA inspector make me bond this?

Why?

Maybe for Feng Shui compliance.

 

[apauling]

Re: survey: bonding hot and cold water

in the sense of "fun" shui, Bob, most water heaters have an inserted plastic sleeve that forces the cold water to the bottom, thereby separating the cold from the hot. maybe in the east it is allowed that cold incoming water can mix at the top with the hot out, but not in senseless California where we like our hot water hot. The bushings on the flex lines now used by most plumbers out here have insulating qualities to them, and the plumbers add pipe dope to the external threads, which creates a complete electrical compromise of the bond between hot and cold.

practitioner of fun shui

 

[iwire]

Re: survey: bonding hot and cold water

Paul I have no issue with that, if you can see that there are insulating parts we must bond around them.

It seems some areas have made it a general (unwritten) rule that all water heaters will have bonding jumper if they have insulting quality's or not.

I do not see any code rules to back up that position.

maybe in the east it is allowed that cold incoming water can mix at the top with the hot out

My connections are on the side, the cold enters the bottom and leaves the top, at about 190 F. at that temp plastic parts tend to fail.

 

[eprice]

Re: survey: bonding hot and cold water

iwire,

I agree, the two code sections you quoted only require that the water piping be bonded once. No additional bonding is required. But they do require both the hot and cold sections of the water piping to be bonded. In the face of uncertainty, such as at the water heater, I think the approach should be to assume bonding is needed unless proven otherwise. I think that the unwritten rules you refere to have come about because it easier for the inspector and the electrician to confirm that the code sections you cite are being met by making the bond than it is to verify that the code is satisfied without the bond.

Originally posted by iwire:
...if you can see that there are insulating parts we must bond around them...

I would say instead, if you can see that there are no insulating parts there is no need for additional bonding. I'm just not sure how I can tell, while standing in front of the water heater, that there are no insulating parts inside.

Another point that may or may not have any bearing here. 250.104 (A) requires the points of attachment of bonding jumpers to be accessible. Why? I think one reason is so that we (the inspectors and the electricians) can verify that the fault current path is intact. How can I have the same level of confidence about the fault current path continuity through the water heater unless I have more information about that water heater than is available by simply looking at it from the outside?

 

[dave55]

Re: survey: bonding hot and cold water

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that the hot water pipes should be bonded, as well as water softeners and filters, whether they have insulating materials or not. With the prevalence of dielectric unions and plastic materials, wouldn't it be prudent to be safe?

I feel it is my obligation to provide a safe system for my customers. What if the hot water heater is replaced using dielectric unions? What if the softener is replaced with a plastic bypass valve? What if all the faucets are plastic? We know plumbers aren't going to install a bonding jumper when they install something that breaks the continuity of the bond. I feel we should have a quick look around also for dielectric unions on a copper-to-galvanized-steel coupling.

The issue is to have the metal piping bonded throughout the building. Any break in that bond creates the potential for a difference in potential. That creates the possibility of electrocution. We are the craftsmen of our industry. Why should it depend on the inspector?

Now I'll get off my soapbox for a minute so you can look at it from a more practical perspective...dead customers don't write checks.

Dave

 

[iwire]

Re: survey: bonding hot and cold water

Dave I do not think anyone is suggesting it is a bad idea to go beyond code minimums.

I just like to know what those minimums are, in this case I see no requirement that an electrical inspector could cite to demand you bond the hot to cold without seeing some insulating fittings installed.

 

[bphgravity]

Re: survey: bonding hot and cold water

Originally posted by iwire:
I just like to know what those minimums are

The minimum is bonding the hot and cold piping. What your suggesting is that materials or equipment at some point and which the electrician has no control over or can rely on may bond the two together. The cold water is one system, the hot is another. We are responsible for the ensured bond, which in my opinion, can only be done by our approved methods.

 

[iwire]

Re: survey: bonding hot and cold water

Heres part of the handbook commentary on this subject, "Some judgment must be exercised for each installation."

You can not throw around approved methods as we get back to the fact that none the water piping is an approved conductor.

Bryan I would never stop someone from doing additional bonding but there is no requirement that the hot and cold must be bonded with a separate conductor.

If they are bonded together already the inspector is going beyond code to ask for more.

 

[bphgravity]

Re: survey: bonding hot and cold water

The handbook continues to also say, "reliably interconnected." Its almost the same thing as requiring a bonding jumper around a water meter or any other componet that may require servicing. Right?

 

[bphgravity]

Re: survey: bonding hot and cold water

Im really sorry to be so hard headed on this (and other issues}, I, like you Bob, want to know the absolute.

I get these type of questions in my classes and seminars and want to be able to cover every possibility. Im sure you understand.

Thanks for shooting back, it keeps me sharp!

 

[websparky]

Re: survey: bonding hot and cold water

Just my two cents:

Should this be Bonded?

The bonding of metallic piping systems or metallic parts in a structure is to help ensure the safety of persons in that structure and the structure itself. Safety is always our first priority.

Bonding is the permanent joining of metallic parts to form an electrically conductive path that ensures electrical continuity and the capacity to safely conduct any fault current that may be imposed on the system or metallic part.

When electrical systems are installed in and about structures, it is the responsibility of the Electrical Inspector to make sure the proper methods are employed during the installation to accomplish a safe electrical system installation. The inspector utilizes his experience, training, knowledge and understanding to make sound decisions, many of which are based on the National Electrical Code.

It is the inspector's duty to determine if the method or materials are acceptable for the use in a given situation. If in his determination a particular method or material will not contribute to the practical safeguarding of persons using or likely to come in contact with the system or metallic parts, he may choose to not approve the method or material and therefore, the method or material would be deemed unacceptable.

Systems and metallic parts shall have an Effective Ground-Fault Current Path. An effective path shall be one that is intentionally constructed, permanent and a low-impedance electrically conductive path. This path is designed and intended to carry current under ground-fault conditions from the point of a ground fault on a wiring system to the electrical supply source.

As an example, an inspector may determine that it can not be reasonably concluded that the hot and cold water pipes are effectively bonded and an electrical bonding jumper shall be required to ensure that an Effective Ground-Fault Current Path is established. This decision is at the sole discretion of the inspector.

 

[bphgravity]

Re: survey: bonding hot and cold water

Well said Dave. Here's a question for you. The installer performs the work, the inspector approves it. Is that where responsibility stops? AHJ doesn't just mean electrical inspector. It can mean your boss, the homeowner, an insurance agent, fire marshall, court of law, etc.. In the case of a fault that results in injury or death, it has been my understanding that electrical inspectors that work for the authoritive body responsible for construction and code compliance is somewhat insulated from law suit and liability. Whereas an electrician is not, regardless of inspection results.

 

[iwire]

Re: survey: bonding hot and cold water

I guess our inspectors are derelict in their duty's as I have never seen the bonding under discussion.

 

[websparky]

Re: survey: bonding hot and cold water

Thanks Bryan!

You are correct in you understanding.

Thanks Bob for your reply!

The term "inspector" is used in this writing because he is representing "The AHJ", has been given the authority by "The AHJ" to do so and is executing the duties of his office.

Most communities in these parts operate the same way. The inspector carries the full support of "The AHJ" when performing his duties. If there is a point that is contested, The AHJ may be requested to respond either in writing or verbally in person .

 

[iwire]

Re: survey: bonding hot and cold water

Originally posted by websparky:
. The inspector carries the full support of "The AHJ" when performing his duties.

That is the fundamental difference we have in our outlooks.

I would put it like this.

"The inspectors fully support the AHJ."

I hope we can agree to disagree,

 

[websparky]

Re: survey: bonding hot and cold water

Bob,

No problem, as always!

I respect your opinion and value it highly.

Thanks!