Suspended Ceiling Support

[roger]

There is a requirement in SREF for 4 supports on suspended fixtures.

I'll try to find it for you.
I wonder if the inspector has confused yourcommercial building fora school.

Bill, the question here is not about a requirement for seismic or other additional supports to the fixtures, it's about some misinformed or uninformed electrical inspectors asking an electrician to fix another trades deficiencies.

Roger

 

[PrimaryElectric]

The project is retail sales...can't be confused for a school.

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

Bill, the question here is not about a requirement for seismic or other additional supports to the fixtures, it's about some misinformed or uninformed electrical inspectors asking an electrician to fix another trades deficiencies.

Roger

I don't see it that way.
Primary Electric has the option of supporting his fixtures independantly of the ceiling grid, in which case whatever method was used to install the suspended ceiling would not affect the integrity of the electrical installation.

But when a contractor chooses to rely on the grid as the means of support for his installation, then the means he choose must be appropriate.

Here's an example - If I choose to cut in a gem box for a receptacle into a 1/4" sheetrock wall, I doubt that box would be considered adequately supported. It would be an electrical violation, not a construction defect.

 

[iwire]

So if the prints show me hanging a heavy transformer it is my job to make sure that the steel engineer built the building to hold it and if not I have to strengthen it?

 

[roger]

I don't see it that way.
Primary Electric has the option of supporting his fixtures independantly of the ceiling grid, in which case whatever method was used to install the suspended ceiling would not affect the integrity of the electrical installation.

He certainly has that option as do you, but it's still the ceiling installers responsibility to install the ceiling per applicable codes, manufacturers instructions, contract specifications, and whatever.

But when a contractor chooses to rely on the grid as the means of support for his installation, then the means he choose must be appropriate.

And per the NEC it's simply attaching the fixture to the grid, see 410.16

Here's an example - If I choose to cut in a gem box for a receptacle into a 1/4" sheetrock wall, I doubt that box would be considered adequately supported. It would be an electrical violation, not a construction defect.

You should of cut it in a ceiling tile.

If you are retrofitting anything you have to accommodate the existing condition, this is not the same as a new grid ceiling being installed per codes.

So once again, we will not be fixing another trades deficiencies.

Roger

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

So if the prints show me hanging a heavy transformer it is my job to make sure that the steel engineer built the building to hold it and if not I have to strengthen it?

No, not if the prints show the method of supporting the transformer is to building steel. But if you proceed to do what the print shows and you're aware that the steel is inadequate, it's up to you to inform the GC.

In Primary's case - the ceiling grid is inadequate. The fixtures shouldn't be installed unless the grid is made right, or, another method is used.

 

[roger]

In Primary's case - the ceiling grid is inadequate. The fixtures shouldn't be installed unless the grid is made right, or, another method is used.

Yep, you're right, and I might not hang the fixtures until the GC had the Ceiling Contractor correct his deficiencies.

If I decided not to hang the fixtures for this reason and it took to long for the repairs to take place, I might even turn in a bill for the lost labor and extended overhead due to being delayed in finishing my tasks.

Roger

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

He certainly has that option as do you, but it's still the ceiling installers responsibility to install the ceiling per applicable codes, manufacturers instructions, contract specifications, and whatever.

Yes, but in the meantime, if the grid didn't meet code, the fixtures shouldn't have been installed. There is also the issue of the ceiling grid meeting building code, but not if it's being used to support fixtures. Once installed in the non-compliant grid, there are now 2 code violations - the electrical violation because the grid isn't adequately supporting the fixtures, and the building code violation because the fixtures are compromising the integrity of the ceiling.

The answer as to who is to blame, who is to pay, who is responsible for the entire installation being code-compliant is in the contract specifications. Was the ceiling contractor deficient in not supporting the grid up in a way that could support fixtures?

And per the NEC it's simply attaching the fixture to the grid, see 410.16


You should of cut it in a ceiling tile.

If you are retrofitting anything you have to accommodate the existing condition, this is not the same as a new grid ceiling being installed per codes.

So once again, we will not be fixing another trades deficiencies.

Roger

Apparently, there is a method of installing suspended grid ceilings which meets building codes, but there are added requirements if that ceiling grid is to be used for fixture support.

Again, you'd have to defer to the ceiling contractors specifications to find out if it's their responsibility to support just the ceiling, or if they're also required to allow provisions for supporting fixtures as well. The devil is in the details.

 

[roger]

the electrical violation because the grid isn't adequately supporting the fixtures

Please cite the code that spells out this "electrical" violation.

Was the ceiling contractor deficient in not supporting the grid up in a way that could support fixtures?

I don't care, I do know that is not my responsibility to do it.

Apparently, there is a method of installing suspended grid ceilings which meets building codes,

Absolutely

but there are added requirements if that ceiling grid is to be used for fixture support.

Which is still his responsibility.

Again, you'd have to defer to the ceiling contractors specifications to find out if it's their responsibility to support just the ceiling, or if they're also required to allow provisions for supporting fixtures as well. The devil is in the details.

Well the devil better get on the stick and fix his problems because this angelic EC isn't going to do it.

In reality, if an EC wants to just accept this expense that's his prerogative, but I won't

Many of my jobs involve installing hundreds to thousands of fixtures and the cost would be in the thousands to fix the ceiling installers short comings, so I wouldn't consider adding these wires.

Roger