Swapping Breaker Panel Guts

Fulthrotl

~~Please excuse the mess. Sig under construction~~
312.8 Switch and Overcurrent Device Enclosures with
Splices, Taps, and Feed-Through Conductors.
The wiring
space of enclosures for switches or overcurrent devices
shall be permitted for conductors feeding through, spliced,
or tapping off to other enclosures, switches, or overcurrent
devices where all of the following conditions are met:

(1) The total of all conductors installed at any cross section
of the wiring space does not exceed 40 percent of the
cross-sectional area of that space.

(2) The total area of all conductors, splices, and taps installed
at any cross section of the wiring space does not
exceed 75 percent of the cross-sectional area of that
space.

(3) A warning label is applied to the enclosure that identifies
the closest disconnecting means for any feedthrough
conductors.
i'm talking about what makes an inspector just sign off and
go away... i'm not trying to confuse this with either logic,
or the NEC. 30 feet of #10 stranded doesn't cost all that
much, leaves a clean interior to the panel, if you use a 6x6
gutter in a 4" wall, leaves a simple way into the panel for
future additions. there's enough of it projecting out of the
wall to land a 3/4" pipe.

i will confess that with regards to (3) above, i did not know
that was permitted under the code currently....

old school is you don't have conductors in a raceway or box
that aren't there for serving the equipment, and a panel isn't
to be used as a raceway...
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
i'm talking about what makes an inspector just sign off and
go away... i'm not trying to confuse this with either logic,
or the NEC.
In my opinion that is nuts.

i will confess that with regards to (3) above, i did not know
that was permitted under the code currently....
It has been permitted for as long as I know, (3) the requirement for a label is new for 2011.

old school is you don't have conductors in a raceway or box
that aren't there for serving the equipment, and a panel isn't
to be used as a raceway...
Not my school and not the NECs position.

It is a great IBEW position as it makes more work. :p
 

Fulthrotl

~~Please excuse the mess. Sig under construction~~
just a thought....

just a thought....

my experience with building inspectors is that what is permitted
under the NEC and what individual inspectors want to see are two
different things, and the esteemed architects of the NEC don't sign
my job off, the AHJ does.

and some of the most expensive battles that i've ever seen being
fought were by a job foreman who pulled something deep out of
a code book, that the inspector didn't know, and shoved it in one
of the inspectors orifices, resulting in a job being picked to death,
with no chance of profit on the job.

i worked for a GF who was pretty sharp with a code book, and
logically creamed the inspector on half a dozen points on a project.
it was an expensive victory. the inspector would come out to inspect,
find a strap that was too far from a box by 2", reject the job, and leave.
you'd fix that, and call for inspection again... and it would be repeated.
over and over.

the electrical contractor never did get a final inspection on the project.
this was in the late 80's, and it was a 1.3 million project that went
750k out of pocket before the contractor went out of business.
the liquidated damages for the daily delays destroyed the firm.
even a change in the GF didn't help... the inspector was making a
point.

at the time, it was about a 125 man shop. that's a lot to lose
for the privilege of being right. i'm sure there were other reasons
for the failure, but the final nail in the coffin was that job.

edit: i have good working relationships with inspectors in my
local areas, thanks.

second edit: i thought this forum wasn't supposed to have any
opinions or discussion concerning organized labor. that being
said, it's an interesting comment coming from a moderator here.

thanks for the ridicule, iwire. maybe that explains why the posts
here are a small fraction of what they were two years ago.
 
Last edited:

Cow

Senior Member
So you're telling us everytime you do a service change and you have to extend the wires(which for me is 99% of the time for a least one circuit) you add a j-box? Sometimes two, if you need one above and below the panel?

How many service changes do you have to do before it's worth it to ACTUALLY bring it up to the inspector that he's had it wrong all these years? Or do you figure it's just that much more you can bill and make a profit off of?

I know some battles aren't worth fighting, but a j-box(es) on every service change?!?! No way.
 

kwired

Electron manager
my experience with building inspectors is that what is permitted
under the NEC and what individual inspectors want to see are two
different things, and the esteemed architects of the NEC don't sign
my job off, the AHJ does.

and some of the most expensive battles that i've ever seen being
fought were by a job foreman who pulled something deep out of
a code book, that the inspector didn't know, and shoved it in one
of the inspectors orifices, resulting in a job being picked to death,
with no chance of profit on the job.

i worked for a GF who was pretty sharp with a code book, and
logically creamed the inspector on half a dozen points on a project.
it was an expensive victory. the inspector would come out to inspect,
find a strap that was too far from a box by 2", reject the job, and leave.
you'd fix that, and call for inspection again... and it would be repeated.
over and over.

the electrical contractor never did get a final inspection on the project.
this was in the late 80's, and it was a 1.3 million project that went
750k out of pocket before the contractor went out of business.
the liquidated damages for the daily delays destroyed the firm.
even a change in the GF didn't help... the inspector was making a
point.

at the time, it was about a 125 man shop. that's a lot to lose
for the privilege of being right. i'm sure there were other reasons
for the failure, but the final nail in the coffin was that job.

edit: i have good working relationships with inspectors in my
local areas, thanks.

second edit: i thought this forum wasn't supposed to have any
opinions or discussion concerning organized labor. that being
said, it's an interesting comment coming from a moderator here.

thanks for the ridicule, iwire. maybe that explains why the posts
here are a small fraction of what they were two years ago.
Once that forman crossed a certain line, it was over. That whole situation exploded from that incident. If I were the owner of the company he probably would have been fired and I may have had to assume the forman position for that project until the situation with the AHJ was straightened out. AHJ may very well have been wrong in the first place but, if he can't be reasoned with on site it is time to go to his supervisor, not get ugly with him.

It is not right for an inspector to make his own code and the contractors have the right to all be treated equal as far as there being published information of what is the code. Most cases it is published as [year]NEC with the following amendments: [any amenments they may have].

If an inspector is not enforcing to the code and any amendments that are supposed to be the law I encourage anyone to challenge them as it is not fair to any of us to allow him/her to get away with that kind of behavior.

When challenging him/her do so in the appropriate manner, they are people too, and may not realize what they are doing is wrong.

As far as opinions on certain topics and number of participants in this forum, there are rules, if you strictly enforce all of them we can't say much at all. Nothing wrong with a few jokes now and then if no harm was intended, some of us put ourselves down all the time and invite others to trample on us afterward, all for a little fun.

Number of participants may be down but after going to some of the other forums I don't really care. I can't stand the way that everyone treats one another on most of them and rarely visit them. Most of it may be just intended for fun but emotions on a message board do not exist and anything can be taken the wrong way very easily. When you are trying to learn or help others learn who wants to read 25 posts of 3 or 4 people bashing each other before you actually read something informative. If I want to be bashed like that I'm sure there are other sites where I can go where that is the only intention of the site is for people to abuse each other. And we wonder why people have so many problems these days.
 

maghazadeh

Senior Member
Once that forman crossed a certain line, it was over. That whole situation exploded from that incident. If I were the owner of the company he probably would have been fired and I may have had to assume the forman position for that project until the situation with the AHJ was straightened out. AHJ may very well have been wrong in the first place but, if he can't be reasoned with on site it is time to go to his supervisor, not get ugly with him.

It is not right for an inspector to make his own code and the contractors have the right to all be treated equal as far as there being published information of what is the code. Most cases it is published as [year]NEC with the following amendments: [any amenments they may have].

If an inspector is not enforcing to the code and any amendments that are supposed to be the law I encourage anyone to challenge them as it is not fair to any of us to allow him/her to get away with that kind of behavior.

When challenging him/her do so in the appropriate manner, they are people too, and may not realize what they are doing is wrong.

As far as opinions on certain topics and number of participants in this forum, there are rules, if you strictly enforce all of them we can't say much at all. Nothing wrong with a few jokes now and then if no harm was intended, some of us put ourselves down all the time and invite others to trample on us afterward, all for a little fun.

Number of participants may be down but after going to some of the other forums I don't really care. I can't stand the way that everyone treats one another on most of them and rarely visit them. Most of it may be just intended for fun but emotions on a message board do not exist and anything can be taken the wrong way very easily. When you are trying to learn or help others learn who wants to read 25 posts of 3 or 4 people bashing each other before you actually read something informative. If I want to be bashed like that I'm sure there are other sites where I can go where that is the only intention of the site is for people to abuse each other. And we wonder why people have so many problems these days.
Kwired, Excellent I am in full agreement with your comments.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
edit: i have good working relationships with inspectors in my
local areas, thanks.
Then why not use this good relationship to discuss the fact they are making you do things that are not required?

second edit: i thought this forum wasn't supposed to have any
opinions or discussion concerning organized labor. that being
said,
You are right, I should have kept my personal opinion to myself.

it's an interesting comment coming from a moderator here.
Moderators are also members with opinions.

thanks for the ridicule, iwire. maybe that explains why the posts
here are a small fraction of what they were two years ago.
Oh please:roll:, nothing I said was that bad, stop blowing it out of proportion.

I said I thought it was nuts to do things you are not required to, I did not say you were nuts.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Then why not use this good relationship to discuss the fact they are making you do things that are not required?



You are right, I should have kept my personal opinion to myself.



Moderators are also members with opinions.



Oh please:roll:, nothing I said was that bad, stop blowing it out of proportion.

I said I thought it was nuts to do things you are not required to, I did not say you were nuts.
If opinions were not allowed here we would not have many posts at all.

Most of the rules of this trade are based on opinions of what is reasonably safe with consideration to the risks involved and sometimes cost.

To submit a proposed change to the NEC is nothing more than giving the CMP your opinion. The more facts you can back your opinion up with the better your chances are of them accepting your proposal. Final acceptance is still done through the opinions of the CMP members. So the entire code is somewhat opinion, with a lot of work done to back up all of those opinions.
 
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