Switch legs

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tortuga

Code Historian
Location
Oregon
Occupation
Electrical Design
This was a accepted practice in this area for some time long ago but I don't know of a time when it was actually acceptable by the NEC and it is not currently.
Historical note:
I have looked into this in two old code books for determining if an existing 1935 installation was up to the code in effect at the time.
The 1934 code section 2005 and 1940 section 2105 lay out rules for 15amp circuits.
The rules for 20A circuits were in section 2006 in the 1934 code and section 2106 for 1940. The code only allowed heavy-duty lamp holders on 20A circuits.
I looks like all candelabra, intermediate and medium base lighting outlets were required by the code in effect at the time to be on a 15 Amp circuit.
Where 12AWG wire is encountered in an old house as part of a general purpose circuit that also feeds lighting it would be for voltage drop reasons (which may have been mandatory).
Probably homeowners replaced 15 amp edison fuses with 30A fuses over the years.
Then an electrician comes along and see's 12AWG wire feeding lighting circuits and puts it on 20A breaker during a panel upgrade, not realizing that most of the circuit is probably in 14.
Hence the myth that it was permitted.

The 1947 code I looked at permits medium base key-less lampholders on a 20A circuit by exception, so perhaps this occurs less often after that.
 

justin13me

Member
Location
CANADA
The Canadian Electrical Code (very similar to/ influenced by the NEC) allows #14 going to lights for the last 25' or 7.5m

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Electric-Light

Senior Member
I can put a 20A, 30A, 50A, 100A single receptacle on a 15A circuit, see 210.21(B)(1).

The literal reading does agree with it. Have you run into a situation where you install a 50A or 100A receptacle on a 15A circuit?

15A automatically gets put on when the power source is less than 15A such as with many inverters and some generators. I can't think of a device that comes with a 20A or higher plug that calls for 15A amapcity circuit. Can you provide some examples of when its justified to provide a native receptacle greater than the circuit ampacity?

https://jadelearning.com/jadecc/courses/UNIVERSAL/NEC05.php?imDif=2190
http://www.legrand.us/-/media/files...acles on small appliance branch circuits.ashx

Referencing to that code neither says about single receptacle can be anything greater than or equal to ampacity.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
The literal reading does agree with it. Have you run into a situation where you install a 50A or 100A receptacle on a 15A circuit?

I have not, but the same rule allows something I have done. Use 60 amp receptacles with breakers from 40 to 60 and 100 receptacles with 70 -100 amp breakers.
 

mopowr steve

Senior Member
Location
NW Ohio
Occupation
Electrical contractor
The Canadian Electrical Code (very similar to/ influenced by the NEC) allows #14 going to lights for the last 25' or 7.5m

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I wonder if this is why it seems so common around here, since we're in the northern states close to Canada? Maybe someone traveling between countries taught it this way, or not.
Remember this was before needing a passport to go between Canada and America.

I also feel this distance limitation is quite acceptable if an exception to code would be allowed 14 ga. switchlegs and travelers on 20amp 12 ga. circuits.
Kind of a tap rule allowance for lighting only.
 

ronaldrc

Senior Member
Location
Tennessee
I wonder if this is why it seems so common around here, since we're in the northern states close to Canada? Maybe someone traveling between countries taught it this way, or not.
Remember this was before needing a passport to go between Canada and America.

I also feel this distance limitation is quite acceptable if an exception to code would be allowed 14 ga. switchlegs and travelers on 20amp 12 ga. circuits.
Kind of a tap rule allowance for lighting only.


I remember when I first started in Electrical work in mid sixties 14/3 was standard
for light switches.


Ronald ;)
 

blkmagik21

Senior Member
Location
Kennewick
I don't do it because I was taught so BUT I think it should be, for lighting switch legs/travelers only. As most likely the switch is only 15 amp rated anyhow and is compliant as long as the lighting load doesn't exceed that rating. And especially when dimmers are most commonly rated for only 600-1000 watts anyhow.

Has anyone tried to change it by submitting a proposal?

I understand your logic, but what you aren't taking into consideration is a short in the wire. Let's say from over lamping fixtures and the insulation on the wires above the light melting off. Then a short may heat up the 14 wire and not trip the breaker causing a fire. There is good reason in the code for this not to be legal.


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blkmagik21

Senior Member
Location
Kennewick
Many things in NEC are based on traditions. Something in NEC is over kill, sometimes things seem stupid then I realize i was the stupid and and sometimes you can be code, but totally substandard in function/performance.

20A recep not allowed on any 15A ckt.

15A recep allowed on 15 or 20A ckts as long as it is not the only single recep on the ckts. Experience has shown time after time after time this does nothing to prevent using a Y adapter on the end of a 16 AWG extension cord to feed two power strips feeding multiple exhibit booths and full 20A is available continuously through the 16 AWG cord.

15 or 20A recep not allowed on ckts of higher ampacity than 20A perhas to prevent the situation above. Sketchy online stores sell unprotected stove outlet spider boxes along with 120/240 dual voltage grounded -| |- outlets.

That 16awg cord is usually stranded also. And stranded conductors can actually hold more ampacity than solid conductors.


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ActionDave

Chief Moderator
Staff member
Location
Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
Occupation
Licensed Electrician
I understand your logic, but what you aren't taking into consideration is a short in the wire. Let's say from over lamping fixtures and the insulation on the wires above the light melting off. Then a short may heat up the 14 wire and not trip the breaker causing a fire. There is good reason in the code for this not to be legal.


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A fault to ground is going to pull a huge slug of current and trip the breaker. If it is a high resistance fault the wire will get hot at that spot only and only a small amount of current is going to flow.

That 16awg cord is usually stranded also. And stranded conductors can actually hold more ampacity than solid conductors.


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There's not enough difference in the ampacity of solid and stranded to be of any consequence.
 

blkmagik21

Senior Member
Location
Kennewick
A fault to ground is going to pull a huge slug of current and trip the breaker. If it is a high resistance fault the wire will get hot at that spot only and only a small amount of current is going to flow.


There's not enough difference in the ampacity of solid and stranded to be of any consequence.

There isn't a difference per the code in ampacity but in straight electrical theory there is. As the power isn't on the inside of the wire it flows on the surface are of the wire so by using stranded you have far more surface area throughout the wire. I've tested this theory and have been able to pass 75 amps down #12 thwn without it heating up over 75 degrees C. While I did the same on a #12 solid thwn and it melted the wire.


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GoldDigger

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Location
Placerville, CA, USA
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Retired PV System Designer
There isn't a difference per the code in ampacity but in straight electrical theory there is. As the power isn't on the inside of the wire it flows on the surface are of the wire so by using stranded you have far more surface area throughout the wire. I've tested this theory and have been able to pass 75 amps down #12 thwn without it heating up over 75 degrees C. While I did the same on a #12 solid thwn and it melted the wire.


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The surface effect on wire resistance at 60Hz with a #12 wire should be negligible.
At 400Hz you need to be aware of it. At lightning transient frequencies it is major.

If the wire is bare, there may be better air cooling on the stranded wire than the solid wire.
In general the NEC ampacity tables are based on melting (or damaging) the insulation, not on melting the wire.
 
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