T Poles and finals

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Re: T Poles and finals

As you are already ignoring safety with a male to male cord what is stopping you from using a standard breaker?
 
Re: T Poles and finals

Bob ,give us a break ,we are not lucky enough to have a meter set.We don't enjoy doing this way but have few options.Just how would you handle a hot check if no meter? And waiting till we do is a very bad way to go .Customers should not ever know there were a few problems.
 
Re: T Poles and finals

Originally posted by jimwalker:
Bob ,give us a break ,we are not lucky enough to have a meter set.We don't enjoy doing this way but have few options.Just how would you handle a hot check if no meter?
How would I handle this, I do not know from here, I would have to see the installation to make a decision on that.

A male to male cord is not an option, a willful violation which would result in a large fine.

Perhaps lift the service conductors from the panel and tie in temp feed there under the rules of 527?
 
Re: T Poles and finals

Bob, i will give you an easy typical new house.The 200 amp main panel(has 200 amp main breaker and is a back to back underground service) is just 4 feet inside of the garage (garage door is open ),just 30 feet away in site and nothing is in the way,is an underground T pole with 20 amp gfci receptacle and a 4 prong 50 amp receptacle on a 50 amp gfci breaker(T pole is on).
The meter has not been set yet.
Your job is to hot check this house that has just been finished with all trim and ready for a final inspection.
This is a common situation,we will assume that very little if anything is found not working.The time frame for this hot check is about 1 hour.If needed i can have a helper stand guard to watch the panel,T pole and anything in between.
Now can you suggest a safe method.Weather conditions sunny 70 degrees no rain in days.
 
Re: T Poles and finals

Jim, If this is an underground service, could you not pull an NM cable through the service lateral conduit to energize the load side of the meter and hard wire the other side to the T-pole? I would think that your poco wil require a pull string in the pipe, maybe they will allow a piece of 12-2 for it.
 
Re: T Poles and finals

Not a bad idea Ryan,but 4 problems
1. there conduit runs from transformer to meter
2 our T pole usually sits about a foot from there pad
3 on res. they put the pipe in and we would be using there conduit
4 we cant open there transformers

What most do down here is run a piece of romex from T pole to the panel or meter and temporary remove gfci breaker and replace with 2 pole 20.
While test is going on the 50 amp receptacle is not hooked up.Only real danger is someone tripping on the wire.Everything is put back to normal after the test ,that unless has problems will be less than an hour.While this probably doesn't meet OSHA it is not much more danger than the cords running from a T pole.And it does do away with the double male plug.
The other choice would be run pvc underground.
(not a very cost effective idea)Lots usually are soded and landscaped before this.
Also one other big problem in that there is a high chance the poco already has installed there wires and put a blank cover on it so it is ready to go soon as they have a CO.And up untill recently if we cut the seal and installed a bypass(removed after hot check) they didn't care.One of there crews even handed me some seals to reseal when i was finished

[ February 09, 2004, 04:02 PM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]
 
Re: T Poles and finals

Originally posted by jimwalker:
What most do down here is run a piece of romex from T pole to the panel or meter and temporary remove gfci breaker and replace with 2 pole 20.
While test is going on the 50 amp receptacle is not hooked up.Only real danger is someone tripping on the wire.Everything is put back to normal after the test
Jim that sounds much better than a male to male cord, and if done carefully should not be an OSHA violation.

A couple of code references.

527.6(A) Receptacle Outlets. All 125-volt, single-phase, 15-, 20-, and 30-ampere receptacle outlets that are not a part of the permanent wiring of the building or structure and that are in use by personnel shall have ground-fault circuit interrupter protection for personnel. If a receptacle(s) is installed or exists as part of the permanent wiring of the building or structure and is used for temporary electric power, ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel shall be provided. For the purposes of this section, cord sets or devices incorporating listed ground-fault circuit interrupter protection for personnel identified for portable use shall be permitted.

(B) Use of Other Outlets. Receptacles other than 125-volt, single-phase, 15-, 20-, and 30-ampere receptacles shall have protection in accordance with (1) or, the assured equipment grounding conductor program in accordance with (2).
(1) GFCI Protection. Ground-fault circuit interrupter protection for personnel.
(2) Assured Equipment Grounding Conductor Program. A written assured equipment grounding conductor program continuously enforced at the site by one or more designated persons to ensure that equipment grounding conductors for all cord sets, receptacles that are not a part of the permanent wiring of the building or structure, and equipment connected by cord and plug are installed and maintained in accordance with the applicable requirements of 250.114, 250.138, 406.3(C), and 527.4(D).
As you can see you are not required to use a GFCI breaker for your hot check.

The two pole breaker 20, 30, 40 or 50 is not feeding outlets for personal.

If a tradesman plugs power tools into the permanent house wiring during your hot check they would need a GFCI pigtail at the outlet to be in compliance.

527.4(B) Feeders. Feeders shall be protected as provided in Article 240. They shall originate in an approved distribution center. Conductors shall be permitted within cable assemblies or within multiconductor cords or cables of a type identified in Table 400.4 for hard usage or extra-hard usage. For the purpose of this section, Type NM and Type NMC cables shall be permitted to be used in any dwelling, building, or structure without any height limitation.
Buy yourself a piece of appropriate hard usage cord and wire it in at both ends and you would be good to go.
 
Re: T Poles and finals

Jim.if you cut the seal THEFT OF SERVICES,Jump with romex OSHA VIOLATION,We even have builders safety people that will not allow us to open the t pole and jump from the breaker to a breaker in the panel unless the breaker in the t pole is gfci protected and we can secure the t pole ( which is not the problem)The biggest problem is the GFCI at the T pole.
 
Re: T Poles and finals

I like Bobs idea of the cord,maybe add some orange caution tape.
Allen yes it is theft but up till recent they really didn't care.What are we talking about,a load of a few hundred watts for maybe an hour.10 cents at best.They are cracking down on it so we stopped.I was told by a TECO man that they had a major problem with some supermarkets bypassing for like a month or 2 and running everything to the tune of thousands.A few bad apples that missused that system is why they cracked down.From safety standpoint it was the best choice.
Now if the builder won't let us jump the T pole then an arrangement needs to be made so we can check and repair before owner moves in.And we all know that there sometimes are major problems like a damaged or left out wire and if drywall and paint repairs are needed this could take a few days,and slow down a closing.In short if they won't help us then we can't help them.Small repairs i can do myself.
How about this idea ? We could add a bell box on the T pole and add a single pole 20 breaker that terminates in the bell box.On hot check open it and thru a connecter install the cord ,put wp blank back on and hook to panel(cross over the phases)if that is not safe then i don't know what more i could do.And that way we will not have the T pole being opened.
I am all for a code compliant way to do this short of major install for a short test.Suggestions are welcomed.
And Bob i have never used a double male,but have worked for some companies that carried them on the truck.
 
Re: T Poles and finals

Jim, to use an isolation transformer would defeat the purpose of the GFCI, so in that case, you might as well install a standard 50a 2-pole, which of course isn't going to fly.

I agree with Bob on the double ended cord.
I also don't have the best answer from sitting here in the cold North East.

I will say that education may play a part here. In that I mean try to find out exactly why the rules are that way, and see how to go about getting them changed.

Here, we install the service on the house and that is what is used for the temp service. This seems to be the ideal way. The temp meter is installed under the builder's name. At time of C.O., the builder has meter taken off of his account, and homeowner has it put into their account. If this is first-time account, they have to put up a deposit.

It just seems that these large electrical contracting companies that you guys work for should have some clout. Try writing everybody involved and let them know that the current system you are having to go through makes it hard to comply with OSHA guidelins and needs updating.

I know that you guys like to stir the pot.
Also, you guys are on the internet alot, and most all key people have e-mail. Maybe flood their mailboxes.

I took some pics of the electric service from my parent's new home in Lake Mary. If I ever get to up-loading them, I'll post them.
 
Re: T Poles and finals

"Jim, to use an isolation transformer would defeat the purpose of the GFCI"
That was what i had in mind. :D :D :D

The reason we don't get a meter early is because it's hard to keep people from moving in without a CO
 
Re: T Poles and finals

As long as the cord is hardwired on both ends it does not need a GFCI breaker.

If it did I will have to rethink all the temp subpanels we install.

The GFCI requirment in 527 is for Receptacle Outlets, not feeders. :)
 
Re: T Poles and finals

Originally posted by jimwalker:
The reason we don't get a meter early is because it's hard to keep people from moving in without a CO
Never been a problem here and the power is on.
 
Re: T Poles and finals

Bob i think the cord idea is a winner and see no reason i can't make this a bit easier by using the bell box i suggested.If thats all it takes to be in compliance i am all for it.Maybe a terminal block for easy connection in the bell box. ;)

[ February 09, 2004, 08:58 PM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]
 
Re: T Poles and finals

Originally posted by iwire:
As long as the cord is hardwired on both ends it does not need a GFCI breaker.

If it did I will have to rethink all the temp subpanels we install.

The GFCI requirment in 527 is for Receptacle Outlets, not feeders. :)
Bob, I agree. But how far away are the temp poles?
And how to get this set-up Code compliant.
We know the stories with Jim's inspectors.
Will the feeder have to be physically protected?
Sch. 80 pvc, lying on the ground? Would that fly?
Or just a piece of SO cord?
 
Re: T Poles and finals

Bob, I would also think the POCO could pull a meter as easy and as fast as they installed one if people were trying to move in with out a C.O.

I know of a case (I was working on the project) in Sarasota county where an inspector had the service disconnected at a restaurant (big name national chain) when they stocked coolers and freezers which was against his specific instructions on the "Temporary Power Connection" he had given them for equipment start up and testing.

We made good money hooking up generators to freezer trucks that night.

Roger
 
Re: T Poles and finals

Well i do know that we have had a hard time getting our T poles disconnected.They won't let the EC turn it off,only the customer who pays the bill.Believe me we would love to have the meter set and so would the air con men.
Tell me tho just how will you stop workers from using the receptacles that are not gfci protected?

[ February 09, 2004, 09:20 PM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]
 
Re: T Poles and finals

Originally posted by jimwalker:
Well i do know that we have had a hard time getting our T poles disconnected.They won't let the EC turn it off,only the customer who pays the bill.Believe me we would love to have the meter set and so would the air con men.
Tell me tho just how will you stop workers from using the receptacles that are not gfci protected?
What does that have to do with people trying to move in or the AHJ having a meter pulled? :roll:

Roger
 
Re: T Poles and finals

Once they have turned it on it is in the customers name.Can local AHJ order the poco to do anything ? I am just asking as this might be a legal matter.
 
Re: T Poles and finals

Jim,
Once they have turned it on it is in the customers name.Can local AHJ order the poco to do anything ?
As described in my last post, which is before any final or C.O., certainly they can. The hook up was specifically for start up and testing.

Also why would you worry about others not using GFCI receptacles? This is not under your control. Do you cut the ends off of faulty cords or tools that belong to others?

Roger

[ February 09, 2004, 10:01 PM: Message edited by: roger ]
 
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