TAP CONDUCTOR VIOLATION.

Strathead

Senior Member
Location
Ocala, Florida, USA
Occupation
Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
Is that a 1200 amp service disconnect or is it a switch in the service entrance conductors? Is the neutral ground bond in that disconnect and all those meters have insulated neutrals?
 

VENgineer

Member
Location
Miramar Fl
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
Does this mean that old installations that were once legal may not be grandfathered in?

What do you do if you have knob and tube where you can’t find suitable replacement equipment? Do you rip out entire runs?
Not necessarily, the recertification is to ensure that the installation is safe and that nothing improper has been done, not to bring the installation up to current codes. However, this violation of the tap conductor rule is not something that was legal 40 years ago and now isn't; It simply affects the safety of the installation since a 350mcm conductor is not protected (at least from overload) if it is connected to a 1200 MCB and, in turn, to another tap where three different cables go to three different OCPDs (200A, 125A, 125A). If these three breakers at some moment carry at least 80% of their load, it exceeds the ampacity of the conductor (350MCM), causing heating without any breaker protecting it.
 

VENgineer

Member
Location
Miramar Fl
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
The three mccbs would go in line with the three sets of 350 MCM conductors. Nothing else changes.
Correct, thank you. The solution I am providing in the report is as follows:

Add the 4th 350MCM conductor, connect the 4 conductors together in the Polaris TAP (as many as necessary), and from there, connect to the loads. This complies with the 10ft and 25ft tap conductor rules (minimum 1/10 or 1/3 size wire depending).

Ground and neutral should be connected together only at the first point of disconnect (Main Breaker 1200A).

Size the wireway to meet the required space.

If you have any opinions, I would appreciate them.
 

Strathead

Senior Member
Location
Ocala, Florida, USA
Occupation
Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
Correct, thank you. The solution I am providing in the report is as follows:

Add the 4th 350MCM conductor, connect the 4 conductors together in the Polaris TAP (as many as necessary), and from there, connect to the loads. This complies with the 10ft and 25ft tap conductor rules (minimum 1/10 or 1/3 size wire depending).

Ground and neutral should be connected together only at the first point of disconnect (Main Breaker 1200A).

Size the wireway to meet the required space.

If you have any opinions, I would appreciate them.
My bad, I failed to properly read exception #2. But after reading the exception, what do you do in regards to an EGC? run it through the meter, without grounding it? I think you must make sure it is grounded to the meter can also,
 

gene6

Senior Member
Location
NY
Occupation
Electrician
Does this mean that old installations that were once legal may not be grandfathered in?
No it means old installations that were never legal that eventually get found out need to be brought up to current code and cost the owner $$$.
If you can prove it was installed to the code in effect at the time then your "grandfathered" at least in NY that is, not sure about your state.
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
...

Add the 4th 350MCM conductor, connect the 4 conductors together in the Polaris TAP (as many as necessary), and from there, connect to the loads. This complies with the 10ft and 25ft tap conductor rules (minimum 1/10 or 1/3 size wire depending).

.

I think to be thoroughly code compliant, each tap needs to connect to all four 350MCM conductors. Otherwise you have a violation of parallel conductor rules and/or you are still tapping a tap.
 

VENgineer

Member
Location
Miramar Fl
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
I think to be thoroughly code compliant, each tap needs to connect to all four 350MCM conductors. Otherwise you have a violation of parallel conductor rules and/or you are still tapping a tap.
Yes, that's what I mean by connecting the 4 service conductor together in the tap and from there to the loads. if it need to continue to another tap, connect the 4 conductors same size to continue the parallel conductor and gain more space for the loads.

Am i wrong?


1716234748313.png
From that taps to the loads disconnect. (4 CONDUCTORS NO 3 LIKE SHOWS THE DIAGRAM)
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
only in installations that are grandfathered in to other buildings.
No idea of what you are saying...the meter bond is permitted anytime the meters are adjacent to the service disconnect. The picture in this thread shows the meters adjacent to the 1200 amp service disconnect.
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
Yes, that's what I mean by connecting the 4 service conductor together in the tap and from there to the loads. if it need to continue to another tap, connect the 4 conductors same size to continue the parallel conductor and gain more space for the loads.

Am i wrong?


View attachment 2571707
From that taps to the loads disconnect. (4 CONDUCTORS NO 3 LIKE SHOWS THE DIAGRAM)
No I don't think you are wrong. I guess I was confused by what you meant when you said parenthetically "as many as necessary" in your last post. If you meant to do as many taps as necessary for the meters, then all good. I thought maybe you meant each tap only had to connect to as many 350MCM as necessary for its load, which would not be correct.
 

Bwas

Member
Location
Florida
Not necessarily, the recertification is to ensure that the installation is safe and that nothing improper has been done, not to bring the installation up to current codes. However, this violation of the tap conductor rule is not something that was legal 40 years ago and now isn't; It simply affects the safety of the installation since a 350mcm conductor is not protected (at least from overload) if it is connected to a 1200 MCB and, in turn, to another tap where three different cables go to three different OCPDs (200A, 125A, 125A). If these three breakers at some moment carry at least 80% of their load, it exceeds the ampacity of the conductor (350MCM), causing heating without any breaker protecting it.
No it means old installations that were never legal that eventually get found out need to be brought up to current code and cost the owner $$$.
If you can prove it was installed to the code in effect at the time then your "grandfathered" at least in NY that is, not sure about your state.
Wouldn't you have to figure out when the electrical work was permitted (assuming it was) and provide a code reference for the code that was in affect at the time? If the installation was permitted, inspected and approved by the AHJ when installed, isn't it thereby code compliant? That's the letter I'd write to you, especially if the installation has been functioning properly for many years.

Is this related to the new laws after that condo collapsed?
 

Elect117

Senior Member
Location
California
Occupation
Engineer E.E. P.E.
Wouldn't you have to figure out when the electrical work was permitted (assuming it was) and provide a code reference for the code that was in affect at the time? If the installation was permitted, inspected and approved by the AHJ when installed, isn't it thereby code compliant? That's the letter I'd write to you, especially if the installation has been functioning properly for many years.

Is this related to the new laws after that condo collapsed?

If he was called out to do an inspection, I imagine it is either for insurance, certificate of occupancy, or work was done somewhere in that section.

In my opinion, if someone touched that section and called for the inspection, it is fair that they included making corrections in their estimate/work. If it wasn't noticed until work started, and he was called out by the contractor asking for his opinion or guidance on what to do, then I also think it is fair to ask them to make the appropriate repair.
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
Wouldn't you have to figure out when the electrical work was permitted (assuming it was) and provide a code reference for the code that was in affect at the time? If the installation was permitted, inspected and approved by the AHJ when installed, isn't it thereby code compliant? That's the letter I'd write to you, especially if the installation has been functioning properly for many years.

Is this related to the new laws after that condo collapsed?
The installation in the OP was never code compliant. By the looks of it, it seems quite likely that the original installation, which might have been compliant when new, was modifed and made non-compliant without a permit or inspection. It's precisely the sort of thing that a recertification inspection ought to flag.
 
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