tap or not

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RowE

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Hey guys would the load side lugs on a feed through panel be considered a tap? I have a new 200A service on the back of a detached garage. The service entrance conductors into the service disconnect are 2/0 copper. The conductors on the feed through lugs are #2awg copper feeding 100A disconnect on the the house. The feeder total length is about 80? to the house mast. The reason I am asking is, because the feeder runs through the inside of the garage and out the opposite wall wall through a mast and weather head to the house mast. If this is a tap than i think it violates the rule by going through the wall and having splices to the overhead. If this is a tap would removing the conductors from the feed through lugs and putting them on a breaker at the feed through panel solve the problem making it a feeder and not a tap? Thanks
 
RowE said:
Hey guys would the load side lugs on a feed through panel be considered a tap? I have a new 200A service on the back of a detached garage. The service entrance conductors into the service disconnect are 2/0 copper. The conductors on the feed through lugs are #2awg copper feeding 100A disconnect on the the house. The feeder total length is about 80? to the house mast. The reason I am asking is, because the feeder runs through the inside of the garage and out the opposite wall wall through a mast and weather head to the house mast. If this is a tap than i think it violates the rule by going through the wall and having splices to the overhead. If this is a tap would removing the conductors from the feed through lugs and putting them on a breaker at the feed through panel solve the problem making it a feeder and not a tap? Thanks
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Not a compliant tap. I would do as you suggested and put it on a 100 amp breaker.
Are you saying that this is overhead to the house? Is it triplex or quadplex? You need 2 ungrounded, 1 insulated grounded plus an EGC. And a GES at the house, not bonded to neutral.
 
RowE said:
Hey guys would the load side lugs on a feed through panel be considered a tap? I have a new 200A service on the back of a detached garage. The service entrance conductors into the service disconnect are 2/0 copper. The conductors on the feed through lugs are #2awg copper feeding 100A disconnect on the the house. The feeder total length is about 80? to the house mast. The reason I am asking is, because the feeder runs through the inside of the garage and out the opposite wall wall through a mast and weather head to the house mast. If this is a tap than i think it violates the rule by going through the wall and having splices to the overhead. If this is a tap would removing the conductors from the feed through lugs and putting them on a breaker at the feed through panel solve the problem making it a feeder and not a tap? Thanks
Click to expand...

In general, it is a tap if the upstream overcurrent protection does not protect the wires.
In your case, the wires would be additional service wires going to a separate panel since they are still on the service side of any protective device. And the new panel connected to the feed through lugs would have to be service rated and also possibly grouped with the original service disconnect as provided in the code.
Your suggestion of connecting the house wires to a breaker in the existing panel is definitely one way of resolving the problem.
In that case the wires would be protected by the feeder breaker and would not be either service conductors or a tap.
Just make sure that you run both a grounded conductor and a separate EGC meeting the calculated size requirements as part of your feeder. You will also have to have a grounding electrode at the house.

Hi Texie! Ships that pass in the night....
 
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GoldDigger said:
In general, it is a tap if the upstream overcurrent protection does not protect the wires.
In your case, the wires would be additional service wires going to a separate panel since they are still on the service side of any protective device. And the new panel connected to the feed through lugs would have to be service rated and also possibly grouped with the original service disconnect as provided in the code.
Your suggestion of connecting the house wires to a breaker in the existing panel is definitely one way of resolving the problem.
In that case the wires would be protected by the feeder breaker and would not be either service conductors or a tap.
Just make sure that you run both a grounded conductor and a separate EGC meeting the calculated size requirements as part of your feeder. You will also have to have a grounding electrode at the house.

Hi Texie! Ships that pass in the night....
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yes it is quadplex to the house, and there is a grounding electrode installed at the house
 
infinity said:
Are the tap conductors solely on the outside of the structures?
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According to the OP, AFAIK, the conductors in question run (inside) from one side to the other in the garage where they originate before going overhead to the house, and they most likely cannot be permitted as service taps because of that. All of the other alternatives would not be taps at all.
 
GoldDigger said:
According to the OP, AFAIK, the conductors in question run (inside) from one side to the other in the garage where they originate before going overhead to the house, and they most likely cannot be permitted as service taps because of that. All of the other alternatives would not be taps at all.
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Not permitted, tap or otherwise.

230.3 One Building or Other Structure Not to Be Supplied
Through Another. Service conductors supplying a
building or other structure shall not pass through the interior
of another building or other structure.
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Smart $ said:
No.
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The problem I see with the install is the feeder on feed through lugs and not a breaker in the panel. Putting it on a breaker would make it a feeder and not a tap. Since it is then a feeder I don't see 230.3 being a problem with the feeder running through the garage. Is that correct or am I missing something. I appreciate all info, you guys are a great resource.
 
RowE said:
The problem I see with the install is the feeder on feed through lugs and not a breaker in the panel. Putting it on a breaker would make it a feeder and not a tap. Since it is then a feeder I don't see 230.3 being a problem with the feeder running through the garage. Is that correct or am I missing something. I appreciate all info, you guys are a great resource.
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I think that you have got it nailed at the moment. :)
Feed through lugs are not an option since it would be a service tap at that point.
 
GoldDigger said:
I think that you have got it nailed at the moment. :)
Feed through lugs are not an option since it would be a service tap at that point.
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In the OP he mentioned a 200A disconnect. Didn't say whether that was MCB or separate disconnecting means... but that sounds like it would make the garage panel bussing a feeder either way and the conductors going to the house a feeder tap already. The problem with this is that it goes through the garage, and must meet one the tap length requirements. If it were entirely outside, it could be of unlimited length.
 
Smart $ said:
In the OP he mentioned a 200A disconnect. Didn't say whether that was MCB or separate disconnecting means... but that sounds like it would make the garage panel bussing a feeder either way and the conductors going to the house a feeder tap already. The problem with this is that it goes through the garage, and must meet one the tap length requirements. If it were entirely outside, it could be of unlimited length.
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Too many uncertainties. The way I (and a few others, I think) interpreted the OP was that the feed through lugs are on the input side of a 200A main in the garage panel, which in turn is the service disconnect.
That seems consistent with the OP's other statements, but we should probably wait for confirmation of that before continuing.
If the feed through lugs are on a separate panel after the main disconnect (including OCPD), then as you noted it all changes.
 
I will see if I can explain what's there a little better. The service comes into a 200A 4 slot service rated main breaker panel with feed through lugs on the load side of the main breaker mounted on the back of the detached garage. The feed through lugs in the service panel feed the house, and a 2p 100A feeds a 20
slot 125A panel in the garage.
 
RowE said:
I will see if I can explain what's there a little better. The service comes into a 200A 4 slot service rated main breaker panel with feed through lugs on the load side of the main breaker mounted on the back of the detached garage. The feed through lugs in the service panel feed the house, and a 2p 100A feeds a 20
slot 125A panel in the garage.
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If these conductors remained outside of the garage then no 10' or 25' tap rules would apply. If not, then one of them needs to be applied. Depending on some particulars you may be able to use the feed thru lugs to feed the garage panel and the 2p/100 for the house.
 
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RowE said:
I will see if I can explain what's there a little better. The service comes into a 200A 4 slot service rated main breaker panel with feed through lugs on the load side of the main breaker mounted on the back of the detached garage. The feed through lugs in the service panel feed the house, and a 2p 100A feeds a 20
slot 125A panel in the garage.
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With a main breaker, that would make the service panel bussing a feeder. The conductors supplying the house by way of the feed-through lugs, being rated less than 200A (actually 176A), are feeder taps.
 
So would adding a 2p 100A breaker in the other two slots of the service panel make it a legal install running through the interior of the garage. I think it was done that way so the conduit would not be visible from the outside deck or does 230.3 still apply?
 
RowE said:
So would adding a 2p 100A breaker in the other two slots of the service panel make it a legal install running through the interior of the garage. I think it was done that way so the conduit would not be visible from the outside deck or does 230.3 still apply?
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230.3 does not apply.

Feeding as proposed should make it compliant.
 
Feeding it from a breaker in the service panel would make it a feeder and not a feeder tap so the tap rules and 230.3 would not apply, making it compliant to run through the interior of the garage, right?
 
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