Tapping Point - Supply Side of Breaker

HecThor

Member
TimePhoto_20180713_113848.jpg

Hello All,

Apologies for the image, just have a question regarding point of interconnection.

3-pole breaker utilizing 2 poles aside :lol:, is there a code violation tapping the inverter output circuit from an AC Disconnect to the supply side lugs of a breaker that can accommodate 2 wires? Is this a violation of Article 705?
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
View attachment 21075

Hello All,

Apologies for the image, just have a question regarding point of interconnection.

3-pole breaker utilizing 2 poles aside :lol:, is there a code violation tapping the inverter output circuit from an AC Disconnect to the supply side lugs of a breaker that can accommodate 2 wires? Is this a violation of Article 705?
It depends. Is the point of interconnection on service conductors or feeders? Is there OCPD on the inverter conductors within 10 feet of the POI? I don't know the legality of using a three pole breaker this way.
 

rojay

Member
It depends. Is the point of interconnection on service conductors or feeders? Is there OCPD on the inverter conductors within 10 feet of the POI? I don't know the legality of using a three pole breaker this way.
Looks like the tap is made to the load side of the breaker??

Also- looks like the breaker is rated at 600 amps. Do the supply side conductors look like they’re anywhere near that ampacity? Parallel 300’s or 350’s would usually be in order.
 

tkb

Senior Member
No connectors on the conduits.
Open knockouts.
Ill bet the splices are the same quality.
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
View attachment 21075

Hello All,

Apologies for the image, just have a question regarding point of interconnection.

3-pole breaker utilizing 2 poles aside :lol:, is there a code violation tapping the inverter output circuit from an AC Disconnect to the supply side lugs of a breaker that can accommodate 2 wires? Is this a violation of Article 705?
I don't think it's a violation of 705. I don't think that the use of 2 poles on a 3pole device is a violation either (unless the device instructions explicitly prohibit it). But as already pointed out, you do have some other issues in the photo I think you'd be obligated to fix if you chose to do work in this enclosure. I hope that's not a service disconnect, for a couple of reasons.
 

pv_n00b

Senior Member
This looks like a corner grounded delta system. Only the two ungrounded conductors go through the OCPD, the grounded phase conductor just goes past it. Most inverters are not usable on a corner grounded delta system.
 

kwired

Electron manager
This looks like a corner grounded delta system. Only the two ungrounded conductors go through the OCPD, the grounded phase conductor just goes past it. Most inverters are not usable on a corner grounded delta system.
Even if that is what we have - there is still some code issues with what is there beyond the obvious improper raceway terminations.

Grounded conductor needs to be white or gray, likely needs to be same size as the ungrounded conductors, if this is service equipment needs to be able to be disconnected, as well as be bonded to the enclosure.
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
This looks like a corner grounded delta system. Only the two ungrounded conductors go through the OCPD, the grounded phase conductor just goes past it. Most inverters are not usable on a corner grounded delta system.
You see a grounded phase conductor? I see a jumble of mismatched sizes and colors. Not sure what to make of it.
 

pv_n00b

Senior Member
Oh, it's messed up beyond being a corner grounded delta, if it is even that. The only thing that makes me think it is one would be the 2 blk conductors coming into the breaker, 2 red conductors leaving the breaker, and a red conductor bypassing the breaker. The 3 reds making up a 3 phase feeder. There are 3 blk conductors leaving the breaker, one not being fed by anything so who knows. Something is wrong here. It's just a shot in the dark, but an educated shot. I would not touch this myself. I would not want to be responsible for it when the inspector starts asking questions.
 

HecThor

Member
It depends. Is the point of interconnection on service conductors or feeders? Is there OCPD on the inverter conductors within 10 feet of the POI? I don't know the legality of using a three pole breaker this way.
The point of interconnection is feeder from an upstream breaker, not a service conductor and yes the OCPD is 10 feet from POI.
 

HecThor

Member
Looks like the tap is made to the load side of the breaker??

Also- looks like the breaker is rated at 600 amps. Do the supply side conductors look like they’re anywhere near that ampacity? Parallel 300’s or 350’s would usually be in order.
Yes this is a Load Side Tap, the conductors are yet to be determined. But good point regarding the size of supply conductors. :thumbsup:
 

HecThor

Member
I don't think it's a violation of 705. I don't think that the use of 2 poles on a 3pole device is a violation either (unless the device instructions explicitly prohibit it). But as already pointed out, you do have some other issues in the photo I think you'd be obligated to fix if you chose to do work in this enclosure. I hope that's not a service disconnect, for a couple of reasons.
Thanks for pointing that out, I'm having trouble if this is a violation of 705, but is it any violation at all on any part of the code? It's not a service disconnect :D
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Thanks for pointing that out, I'm having trouble if this is a violation of 705, but is it any violation at all on any part of the code? It's not a service disconnect :D
I'm a little reluctant to give advice on this one because what I'm seeing - unprofessional conduit installation, conductors going baffling directions, no white wire - makes me question whether any of the existing conductors are correctly sized for the existing applications, let alone adding and inverter output.

In principle 705 allows you to tap on either side of that breaker. But there are a number of conditions that have to be met on various wire sizes, and the code wording is pretty poor on specifics, and why go into all those details if we don't know which of those conductors you have to repull anyway for various unrelated code violations? We've helped you about as much as we can with the info you've given us so far. Give us a specific proposal of what you'd do and what all the relevant specs are and we can discuss.
 
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