Tell me if this is legal or not....

[dirty dawg]

I just moved into the house where I live and had a few questions over some of the electrical stuff that I found....

...First off, this house *I believe* was built around 1980....

Ok, looking at the circuit breakers, I notice the washer appears to be on it's own circuit (haven't really checked it yet). It's a 20 amp circuit breaker. However the receptacle is only a 15 amp. Should it be a 20 amp receptacle?

Same thing in the kitchen....they have 20 amp circuit breakers, yet all of the receptacles are 15 amp. Should they be the 20 amp style? BTW the kitchen outlets don't have any type of GFCI protection.

Now the bathrooms.....I have two bathrooms, both are run off the same 15 amp circuit. However, there is one 20 amp GFCI receptacle in one of the bathrooms, and if it trips, it kills power to both bathrooms. (Both bathrooms include 2 lights, one overhead fan and one receptacle) Is this legal? Or should it be redone?

Thanx.

 

[iwire]

Re: Tell me if this is legal or not....

It all sounds correct for 1980.

The use of 15 amp outlets on 20 amp circuits was and still is OK.

The bathroom circuit and the lack of GFCIs in the kitchen would does not meet todays codes.

Should you do it over?

There is no code reason to do so, it will be totally up to you.

The code is not retroactive, so if it was correct when installed it is legal now.

Putting GFCIs in the kitchen would be quick cheap and easy.

Re circuiting the bathrooms may be more difficult.

I would not bother changing it unless you find yourself tripping the breakers.

If your family would want to run a couple of hair dryers at the same time you will most likely trip the breaker.

If your like me we do not even own hair dryers so the 15 amp circuit serving my bathroom outlets and lights has never tripped.

[ November 23, 2003, 12:22 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]

 

[tom baker]

Re: Tell me if this is legal or not....

The largest loads in a dwelling unit will be the kitchen and laundry. You don't state what type of panel you have, fuses or circuit breakers, if fuses consider a change out to a breaker panel. A typical modern service will have 100 ampere service minumum and most likely 200 ampere.
A qualified electrical contractor can quicky asses the condition of your elecrical service and wiring. I would run new wiring to the kitchen and laundry to start with.

 

[tom baker]

Re: Tell me if this is legal or not....

The largest loads in a dwelling unit (non electric heat or non heat pump) will typically be the kitchen and laundry. You don't state what type of panel you have, fuses or circuit breakers, if fuses consider a change out to a breaker panel. A typical modern service will have 100 ampere service minumum and most likely 200 ampere.
A qualified electrical contractor can quicky asses the condition of your elecrical service and wiring. I would run new wiring to the kitchen and laundry to start with.

[ November 23, 2003, 12:42 PM: Message edited by: tom baker ]

 

[cutekennydet]

Re: Tell me if this is legal or not....

Generally speaking It is okay to use 15 amp plugs on a 20 amp circuit. I worked on a large home built around 1980 that had 5 bathrooms on 1 circuit and 1 gfI. It is legal if the ltg. and fans are on another circuit. The homeowner called me because all the bathroom plugs were not working. Simple fix reset 1 triped GFI. You have to remember what John Betis( Chief Elec.Insp Detroit) said, minimum code is C- or D work only. It is barely not failing. Legal but not always what serves the customer best.

PS It is football Sunday so I will note John Betis is the Father of Jerome Betis (The Bus)star running back Pittsburgh Steallers.

 

[ty]

Re: Tell me if this is legal or not....

The 20amp GFCI receptacle on the 15amp bathroom circut is a violation of 210.21(B)(2) as far back as I have in front of me which is only 1993NEC.

 

[dirty dawg]

Re: Tell me if this is legal or not....

Not really sure what type of service I have. But get this.....the main breaker is labeled as a 60 amp circuit. But yet the heat pump's breaker (we live in NC) is rated at 90 amps! Go figure!

As for the bathroom receptacle, I am unsure if this is originally part of the house or not but by the way they installed it I'd like to think it is.....I dunno....did they have GFCI's back in 1980?

It's not even my house....I rent it so I think if anything I'll have the landlord do the work.....unless she wants to give me a deduction on rent.

 

[hurk27]

Re: Tell me if this is legal or not....

If I remember right we were required 100 amp minium main service size in the "70's" and putting a 20 GFCI on a 15 amp circuit would of been a violation. but I dont remember anything that would require GFCI's in the kitchen. The heat pump could have been added to the house at a later time what size are the service conductors as someone culd of just changed the main breaker, maybe it went bad and the 60 was all they had. ?

 

[Guest]

Re: Tell me if this is legal or not....

In my area during the 70's the inspectors pocket punch list (cheat sheet) included putting a 20-amp receptacle on the laundy circuit. Most inspectors are given a cheat sheet by the plan checkers for things they should look for in a dwelling. The 20-amp laundry receptacle was one of them in my area.

 

[charlie]

Re: Tell me if this is legal or not....

Wayne, it is interesting that your area requires more then the NEC requires. The NEC requires a 20 ampere laundry circuit but it doesn't mention the receptacle size. Therefore, the receptacles may be 15 amperes unless you only install a single receptacle so you would have an individual branch circuit. Most of the 20 ampere circuits around here (kitchen, laundry, dining room, etc.) get 15 ampere duplex receptacles. Besides, when is the last time you have seen a 20 ampere 125 volt plug in a home for general use?

 

[Guest]

Re: Tell me if this is legal or not....

It's just some yahoo's interpretation of the code. Putting a 20-amp in the laundry was a pretty small bone to throw them.

You're right I've not come across a washer or gas dryer with a 20-amp cord cap.

 

[tonyi]

Re: Tell me if this is legal or not....

I've got an old 20A window unit A/C sitting out back with the 20A "T" plug. Not sure I'd want to pay the bills to run it though

I've found the spec 20A recepticals to be very useful on quite a few occasions for residential rework where there's tight box with short leads. You could pigtail and it technically doesn't affect a volume calc, but in reality it makes life a lot harder unless its a deep box. The internal clamps on the spec 20A's can save a bunch of grief. WELL worth the extra cost when the "hassle factor" is considered.

 

[iwire]

Re: Tell me if this is legal or not....

Sorry, I did miss the fact you had a 20 amp GFCI in the bathroom on a 15 amp circuit.

That was a violation then and now.

I am more than a little confused as to why Tom is suggesting a rewire on a 1980s kitchen.

Other than the change to GFCIs the code as far as I know is pretty much unchanged for kitchens from 1980 to 2003.

Your best bet if you really want to know about your wiring is to do what Tom suggested and get an electrician out there to look it over.

NOT a home inspector :roll: , a licensed electrical contractor that is currently wiring houses in your area. That person will know what is normal in your area.

JMO, Bob

 

[tom baker]

Re: Tell me if this is legal or not....

I didn't realize the kitchen had been remodeled in the 80's, if so its probably OK

"Your best bet if you really want to know about your wiring is to do what Tom suggested and get an electrician out there to look it over.

NOT a home inspector , a licensed electrical contractor that is currently wiring houses in your area. That person will know what is normal in your area."
Amen on not a home inspector...

 

[dirty dawg]

Re: Tell me if this is legal or not....

Yes there is a 20 amp/120 volt outlet in the bathroom, powered by a 15 amp breaker. Not sure who put it there or when it was put there but it looks to be intentionally done to trip the bathroom circuits in the event of a ground fault.

Not to go against the riles but when you think about it what's the probability of putting an appliance in a bathroom that requires a 20 amp/120 volt outlet? Are there any bathroom appliances that run off of strictly 20 amp/120 volts?

I've only seen one appliance in my life that required the use of a 20 amp/120 volt outlet, and that was a commercial microwave. But then again as you have stated, it is a violation of the NEC.

Not sure who put it there. When did GFCI's come out anyways?

 

[bigjohn67]

Re: Tell me if this is legal or not....

the code clearly states that you can use either a 15 or 20 amp receptical on either 15/20 amp circuit. 15's are allowed on 20 amp circuits.
the only exception to this is if there is only one receptical on a 20 amp breaker, then a 20 amp receptical must be used.

 

[hurk27]

Re: Tell me if this is legal or not....

Big John read 2002 NEC Table 210.21 (B) (2) it does not allow a 20 amp rated receptacle on a 15 amp circuit. If this didn't convince you look at table 210.21 (B) (3) :
Circuit Rating (Amperes)15 Receptacle Rating Amperes) Not over 15

[ November 24, 2003, 10:52 PM: Message edited by: hurk27 ]

 

[dirty dawg]

Re: Tell me if this is legal or not....

Originally posted by dirty dawg:
...First off, this house *I believe* was built around 1980....

Now the bathrooms.....I have two bathrooms, both are run off the same 15 amp circuit. However, there is one 20 amp GFCI receptacle in one of the bathrooms, and if it trips, it kills power to both bathrooms. (Both bathrooms include 2 lights, one overhead fan and one receptacle) Is this legal? Or should it be redone?

I just learned something new today......I have learned that not only does this GFCI kill power to both of my bathrooms when it is tripped, but I have also learned that when tripped it also kills power to both of my outdoor receptacles (I have 2) and it also kills power to one of the three receptacles in the garage!!

However it does not kill any of the receptacles in the kitchen, particularly around the sink, and as to why it wasn't wired to kill power to the other two receptacles in the garage is beyond me. I mean I would think you'd want to protect yourself on all three, and not just one.

Now I'm beginning to wonder what kind of electrician did this???

 

[hurk27]

Re: Tell me if this is legal or not....

It was common to use the bathroom GFCI to protect the outdoor receptacles and or any in another bathroom but most didn't put the lights on with it. the requirments for GFCI protection on outlets within 6' of the sink came at a later time as well as the garage. Back then you were lucky to get a hair dryer that would use 600 watts and we didn't have all the curling irons. remember those curlers that the women would sit at the kitchen table and curl there hair. I don't think I ever remember one being used in the bathroom. but with todays demands on the bathroom receptacle it would be wise to install a 20 amp circuit or you will be getting calls for triped breakers all the time.

 

[charlie b]

Re: Tell me if this is legal or not....

Originally posted by ty: The 20amp GFCI receptacle on the 15amp bathroom circuit is a violation of 210.21(B)(2) as far back as I have in front of me which is only 1993NEC.

I have the 1981 version. Putting a 20 amp receptacle on a 15 amp branch circuit would have been a violation under the 1981 code. In addition, that article does not have any revision symbol, so I infer that the same rule applied in the 1978 code.