Tell me if this is legal or not....

[charlie b]

Re: Tell me if this is legal or not....

Originally posted by dirty dawg:Not to go against the rules but when you think about it what's the probability of putting an appliance in a bathroom that requires a 20 amp/120 volt outlet? Are there any bathroom appliances that run off of strictly 20 amp/120 volts?

Not the point. The point is ?false advertising.? Obviously, after the installer hands over the keys to the owner, the owner can do anything he wants inside the house. If the owner wants to plug extension cords into extension cords, run them all over the house, and try to operate a dozen hair dryers, none of that would be the responsibility of the installer, and none would fall into the purview of the NEC. When the breakers trip, the owner learns his lesson.

What the NEC is telling the installer NOT to do is to leave the homeowner with the impression that he has 20 amps worth of power available at the receptacle, when the circuit is designed to trip at 15 amps.

 

[tom baker]

Re: Tell me if this is legal or not....

I see a lot of 20 A receptacles installed for specification jobs. A 20 costs more than a 15. However, I have seen perhaps one appliance with a 20A cord cap. In my thinking, if the device has a 20A cord cap, then it should be on a dedicated circuit. I suspect the reason we see a lot of 20A receptacles is the boilerplate specs require them> What do you think, Charlie B?

 

[charlie b]

Re: Tell me if this is legal or not....

The problem with boilerplate specs is that you don?t have to do much thinking to use them. Specifically, you don?t have to know why they were written the way they were written, and you don?t have to know the technical basis for any requirement they contain. In my mind, the concept of ?value engineering? does not mean that you look for the cheapest way to meet code. It means look for the cheapest way to build something that will make the owner happy. My plans and specs are going to call for 20 amp receptacles on 20 amp branch circuits, unless the owner overrides that design choice.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Tell me if this is legal or not....

There is one thing everyone has missed,this is rental property and the owner is not likely to want to spend a dime on things that are working.And im sure a rewire kitchen is out.The only real code violation is that 20 amp gfci.It is no hazard even if he did plug a T item in it,worse that happens is it kicks breaker.As to the 60 amp service this house sounds like bit older than 1980 just when did the code require min of 100 amp.If we think back to the 80s kitchen only had 2 duplex's on a circuit,so even better than today except the kitchen might have only had 2 total for the counter.My advise is if you dont want rent to rise don't stir this up.If it was yours and you could do the work then a rewire or partial might be a good call.

 

[moorepower]

Re: Tell me if this is legal or not....

I never seen a 20 amp hair dry , and the app I seen with a 20 t cord are commercial, and required there own feed.

Home inspectors are no substitute for a good sparkey

I have seen one gfci contoll all the outsid basement, garge, and bathrooms. and in some case the bath lights as well. That is how it was done in the 80's

I agree that if you blow breaks then fix the propmen.
If it ain't broke don't fix it
Moorpower, ohio

 

[ranger12]

Re: Tell me if this is legal or not....

Dirty Dawg,it is pretty common for an 1800 watt blow dryer to trip a fifteen amp circuit breaker.Especially when a curling iron or other bathroom appliance is plugged in.This problem becomes compounded when more than one bathroom is on the circuit and the bathrooms are being used simultaneously.This is a common type of service call.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Tell me if this is legal or not....

Bet a lot of them buy smaller blowers before paying for the real cure

 

[ranger12]

Re: Tell me if this is legal or not....

Hi Jimwalker,funny thing i was walking thru downtown seattle last summer and i saw this theme shop.Kind of like antique store.What caught my eye wer'e these old blowdryers.Did you know that they had blowdryers in the 1930's?Sorry i stray off the subject.I usually tell people in this situation that they have two choices.One is to modify the way they use electricity.For example do not have everything going on the circuit all at one time or bring in additional circuits.A lot of times if it is a husband and wife situation the wife get's her way and the circuit gets upgraded.Sometimes it is a purely financial decision and like you said they try every other fix.I guess my comment here is it is interesting how human dynamics play in our business.Oh and the whole rentor versus landlord thing well that is another thread. :roll:

 

[tshephard]

Re: Tell me if this is legal or not....

Tom, on first page of replies you suggest going to a breaker panel (instead of fuses).
My pop requested a change to a breaker panel, and I could not think of a good reason to change from fuses to breakers.
I have an industrial background, and I don't recall ever changing conductors where I had a fuse protected circuit, but many times with a breaker protected circuit.
With properly function circuits, why would one change from fuses to breakers?

 

[tom baker]

Re: Tell me if this is legal or not....

TShepard: In your industrial background, you have qualifed persons who are familar with OCPDs. In a residential application, its too easy to overfuse a circuit. Thats why the NEC doesn't allow edison fuses and only type S can be used, unless there is no evidence of overfusing or tampering - 240.51
And I don't belive you can even buy a 42 circuit fused panelboard, or at least it would cost way more than the $75 that I can buy a 42 circuit 200 amp main breaker panel.

 

[tshephard]

Re: Tell me if this is legal or not....

Pretty quick reply....thanks.
My parish Rector (priest) blew his service Thanksgiving eve changing a oven element with the power on. Evidently his oven broke 1 side only of 240V and he hit the element on the chassis. He blew a main fuse in a breaker panel, cursed the fuse, but we all told him how lucky he was to have a main fuse, as they blow faster. I think the fuse may very well have saved his eyes.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Tell me if this is legal or not....

Hmmm lets try this on for size
Customer adds onto bedroom needs recepticles
has a perfectly good fuse panel with open spaces.
Do we force him to upgrade to breakers so that he can install afci breaker ?

 

[big john]

Re: Tell me if this is legal or not....

In response to the question presented by jimwalker:

A relatively cheap solution: You could always install a 240V two pole breaker enclosure and put the AFCI breaker in there.

That would also leave room for any additional protection requirements. I.e.: Other AFCI or GFCI breakers that may need to be installed.

-John

[ December 18, 2003, 04:30 AM: Message edited by: big john ]

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Tell me if this is legal or not....

Does seem like the only way out.But far from cheap.Just to say add one recepticle to a remodel.Seems like they could have made some kind of exception.Might be 4 bed rooms,total of 20 outlets and we force 1 to be afci protected.
I know it's required.

 

[bonding jumper]

Re: Tell me if this is legal or not....

As a designer it always pisses me off when I go into a job that I designed and look at the receptacles and switches the contractor installed and see a 15a rating on them. The total cost for an installation of a switch is approx 100 bucks, give or take 25 bucks. The difference in a 15a switch/duplex receptacle and a 20 amp switch/duplex receptacle is approximately a dollar. But if you hold one of each in your hand you can clearly feel by weight, see by quality of terminals, that the 20 is much higher quality. My point being, in an installation that costs 100 bucks, the quality of the installation and the customer is left with a crap switch that will last half as long because the contractor wanted to save one dollar.

 

[roger deas]

Re: Tell me if this is legal or not....

Bonding Jumper, do you specify 20 amp devices so that all bidders are looking at the same basket of oranges or apples.

I can't see where you have any ground to stand on if you don't clarify your documents.

Most EC's are competeing in a tight market, and with sophisticated estimating can win or loose a job over $1.00 units multiplied say by 1000 times.

Two years ago I saw a job go for right at $800,000, and out of 7 bidders the seperation from high to low was $11,000 on the base figure.

Roger

 

[bonding jumper]

Re: Tell me if this is legal or not....

Yup, I put it in the drawing spec and in the legend. Single pole, 20A rating. I don't put a model number cuz its a switch, I trust the contractor to be capable of using a ul listed device. And bidding is different, engineers don't grant winning bids based on $ alone. Refrences, prior experience, company longevity, reputation, "Pratical Bids" all come into play. A lot of times you can get these GC's that's bids come in much lower and are impratical. It can be because some of these gc's are hiring cheap illegal inexperienced labor, or sometimes they screw over their subs. So the lowest bid dosn't usually get the job. The bids need to make sence, we as engineers do our own estimateing and will only give a job to someone who has realistic lower figures. GC's will read on the dwgs/spec and ingnore (or just not read), and give the customer 15 amp outlets and switches instead of 20. And typically I'm not gonna make the guy throughout the building and re-install 20 amp switches and receptacles. It just pisses me off that they will bid for the 20, which I don't beleive they factor into bidding anyways cuz its 97% labor, and then just install a cheaper switch.

[ December 22, 2003, 01:27 PM: Message edited by: bonding jumper ]

 

[roger]

Re: Tell me if this is legal or not....

We are definatly not on the same page here.

I'm talking about formal bids based on drawings and specs, and sealed bid openings. This can be single or multi prime. The contractors are approved before being allowed or invited to bid the project. These are usually contractors with size and proven experience, and must show they know how to follow national laws, state laws, MBE laws etc... all of this is considered in a contractor being approved.

If the contract documents are the bid law, and you let the winning contractor substitute a substandard piece of equipment (ie... not make them go back and change them regardless of quantity) the loosing bidders would have a legitament case against the party awarding the contract.

How could these contractors substitute something other than what you approved through the submittal process anyways?

Now if said contractor issues a credit for these substandard items (hit him in the pocket) material and labor, we have another story.

If you are not going through formal submittal approvals, you are going to see this or worse on alot of your jobs.

Roger

[ December 22, 2003, 05:31 PM: Message edited by: roger ]