goldstar
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
I hear you brother
Tell me it's not so...Has our trade hit bottom with prices?????
- Thread starter staticcontrol
- Start date
- Status
goldstar
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
I'm not going to go out of my way to turn in someone doing bootleg work. However, if I end up losing an electrical job to a handyman with no electrical license you can bet the ranch that I'll be turning him in. And not just for me but for my trade for which I am an advocate. If he took work away from me today it will only be a short amount of time before he takes a job away from one of the contractors in my association.
In my area all the new younger EC's will turn in their mother in a heart beat, nothing like the days of the older EC's who were passive and looked the other way, this new breed of EC's figure they have to license, insure and live with continuing education, and all the time and expenses that go with it, they
flyboy
Member
- Location
- Planet Earth
Fair enough...
Fulthrotl
~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
- Occupation
- E
well, there is one of these sorta threads here every month.
'n everyone gets twizzled about how "things are going to hell".
i set my price for what the works worth on today's marketplace.
as i see it.
therein lies the rub... someone comes along and redefines what
the work is worth, and lo and behold, i and my point of view are SOL.
electrical contracting at the "trunk slammer" level doesn't require a
ton of capitalization.
for the "can light and ceiling fan" industry, there are a number of
people who will do them all day for about half of what i charge.
sometimes i follow behind them, fixing botches. usually i don't.
there is a very good reason why prices are what they are in our
line of work. here it is:
there are more people available to do our work, than there is work
to be done.
and short of shooting people who do electrical work, i don't see
that changing anytime soon.
goldstar
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Hey, now there's an idea :lol: Maybe we can use paint ball guns and mark them according to the day we hit them. Monday is yellow, tuesday is blue, etc. That way, when they drive down the street we'll know that this guy did bootleg work on monday !!!
BTW, I've always wanted to do this with the deer and squirrels in my back yard.
GUNNING
Senior Member
- Location
- Gainesville, Florida
drivers seat
drivers seat
drivers seat
Last edited:
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- Semi-retired engineer
If the $500.00 represented just your salary, you now have to pay for insurance, your truck, maintenance on your truck, $$ it costs to maintain your licence and business permit, etc. By the end of the day if all you're looking for is a few bucks to stay alive then why go through all the trouble of being in business for yourself ? Might as well work for HD and not have any of the headaches.
That's what I meant by my comment. I think you read more into it than what I meant. If not, then maybe you're one of the trunk slammers we always compalin about.
$500 a day is over $130,000 a year. If you cannot make overhead and a decent profit with that kind of number as a small business with just yourself and your equipment, you need to find cheaper coke to sniff, just to get by until things get better.
The bottom line is that when the economy contracts everyone takes at least some hit. Some take it much worse than others. Many times it is more or less random who gets it worse.
These things always go in cycles and it will eventually come back. I suspect it will be slower coming back than it has in the past, but it will come back. In the mean time, you still have to survive.
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
Since the OP specifically mentions New Jersey is disingenuous to say that someone who cannot get by on $500 a day is a coke head. Fact of the matter is in the State with the second highest per capita income and some of the highest taxes in the country many business owners cannot live here on that sum of money unless their spouse has an equal paying job.
renosteinke
Senior Member
- Location
- NE Arkansas
In the course of getting a roof replaced, I encountered a variety of folks.
At one extreme there was the guy across the street, who assured me that he and his 'friends' could do it, after hours, etc., and save me a lot of money.
Then there were the various small roofing shops, the 3-person family operations operating out of their kitchen, with a pick-up truck and a shakey ladder. Neither license nor permit needed here, and they took full advantage.
Finally, there was the 'big contractor' in town. He was quite upfront about not being the cheapest guy. He showed me pictures of the specialized equipment - such as the scissor-lift style dumpster - that he would bring to the job. He explained how all his guys had workmans' comp. He explained that all his guys were certified by the manufacturer, and that his shop was the only one in the area that was certified by any manufacturer- and thus, he was the only guy who could offer the long guarantees.
I think we often fall short on salesmanship. It seems most guys never get past 'I'm booked solid,' then they cry that so many of their 'appointments' are at the fishing hole.
As for the general state of the economy .... we have collapsed so far that some items are disappearing from the market, as suppliers get out of all but their most profitable lines. Stuff that hasn't seen a price cut in decades is being discounted. "Service" is lost, as only the income-generators are kept on the payroll.
Collusion. Funny how that term changes from 'despicable' to 'respectable' depending on who's talking. Anyone who thinks licensing boards are created by angles, worrying about the public welfare, needs to get out more often. The same applies tenfold to the motives driving the expansion of government. "Government" is but a fancy term for 'legalized collusion.' Thus, government tries to claim a monopoly: two bureaus can collude, but not two contractors.
Small wonder that every new rule creates more gypsy contractors. Can we not see how our attempts to 'dump' on this 'undesireable' competition only fertilizes them, so they grow stronger?
At one extreme there was the guy across the street, who assured me that he and his 'friends' could do it, after hours, etc., and save me a lot of money.
Then there were the various small roofing shops, the 3-person family operations operating out of their kitchen, with a pick-up truck and a shakey ladder. Neither license nor permit needed here, and they took full advantage.
Finally, there was the 'big contractor' in town. He was quite upfront about not being the cheapest guy. He showed me pictures of the specialized equipment - such as the scissor-lift style dumpster - that he would bring to the job. He explained how all his guys had workmans' comp. He explained that all his guys were certified by the manufacturer, and that his shop was the only one in the area that was certified by any manufacturer- and thus, he was the only guy who could offer the long guarantees.
I think we often fall short on salesmanship. It seems most guys never get past 'I'm booked solid,' then they cry that so many of their 'appointments' are at the fishing hole.
As for the general state of the economy .... we have collapsed so far that some items are disappearing from the market, as suppliers get out of all but their most profitable lines. Stuff that hasn't seen a price cut in decades is being discounted. "Service" is lost, as only the income-generators are kept on the payroll.
Collusion. Funny how that term changes from 'despicable' to 'respectable' depending on who's talking. Anyone who thinks licensing boards are created by angles, worrying about the public welfare, needs to get out more often. The same applies tenfold to the motives driving the expansion of government. "Government" is but a fancy term for 'legalized collusion.' Thus, government tries to claim a monopoly: two bureaus can collude, but not two contractors.
Small wonder that every new rule creates more gypsy contractors. Can we not see how our attempts to 'dump' on this 'undesireable' competition only fertilizes them, so they grow stronger?
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
All they need to do is say $20 an hour and many customers will hire them.
They may get a lot of extra hours, some of them correcting mistakes, replacing things that did not work, etc. plus you end up buying everything that was not needed in the first place.
This is especially true in the service area with someone that does not have good troubleshooting skills, they typically end up throwing parts at the situation until they eventually replace the one that was the problem. This happens in more than just electrical trades too. I have seen auto mechanics that do that.
New jersey treats all business as equal they bleed them to death with taxes and fines, one late return for $110 can compound into a $5K amount due before you can blink your eye, and surprise surprise, who runs and collects for the state, might be a retired state employees who went into business, the mob is Disney Land compared to dealing with Jersey, most of the big companies ran out of state with all their jobs and went more business friendly states, so Bob please understand the ligit guys from Jersey are hit hard from all directions
Pierre C Belarge
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
...and he could have $400 per day overhead costs...just stating it is all relative when it comes to numbers, as details are not discussed.
What I really want to comment on is the portion of your comment I highlighted.
There has already been a protracted tailspin to the income of the majority of people employed (if they are employed). It is not over and recovery is much slower than in the past. I have seen numerous economical downturns over the years, this one is by far the worst and longest, with yet years to pass before we see improvement. Although for most, the future is no where near as bright as it was for the years between 1992-2006. We have already seen an exodus of very good talent from this industry, and I suspect we will experience a smaller percentage of good talent entering this industry for years to come. As a matter of fact, I have seen it already...
Electric-Light
Senior Member
Not so quick there buddy. Every field has whats called "entry barrier" which makes it hard to get into it. Responsiveness, lowest cost and established reputation are the three factors in consideration for acceptance of bid.
If you're a n00b and you bid in a price that's very very close to the median, and the next highest has been around for a long time and established history, they'll be like "who the hell is this bidder" and you know you're gonna lose that job.
You have to get out and have people realize you exist. Marketing & advertising are major expenses for businesses. Go out and spend $1,000 on advertising, or go out and do several jobs that ends up putting you $1,000 in loss to get your name out? Whichever is fine.
So, he could be a truck slammer. It could be part of his planned tactic, like free product samples. Why do you think some contractors do "charity work"? Part of it is to be nice. Part of it is to meet community expectation of business participation, but earning "thank you (name here) electric for their generous contribution" announcement is a big one too.
So long as I'm not doing anything illegal, I value the right to do things others see as stupid. I don't want others pressuring me into doing what I can and can't do.
Last edited:
Pierre C Belarge
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
What I hear in your response is a person who unknowingly degrades the value of the talented people of this industry. Those who enter the industry as new.."noobs' business owners, have every right as a citizen to charge whatever they feel like. Yet this degrades the industry as a whole and does not necessarily benefit anyone in the long term. Yes we have a system that permits people who are uneducated/ignorant in business practice to become licensed, unfortunately I suspect it is also one of the pieces to the puzzle that has kept the installation portion of the industry at the level it is today.
GBBOLT
Member
- Location
- Trenton, Florida
Someone is always cheaper!
Someone is always cheaper!
Seems like we have the same problems down here in Florida that EC's are having across the states. Depending on who you have been doing business with for the past however many years makes a big difference on how much work you currently have going. I saw many post about keeping your customers or GC's happy and you will still get a good shot at the job, but depending on who you are working with or for, that could be the farthest from the truth. Our company was built and practically funded by doing work for the Univ. of Florida, or CM's with contracts with the University. Our CM's have always loved our quality of work and finished products we have given them over the years, therefore always keeping us in mind when awarding the job even though we may not have been the low bidder. Now days though, the University is actually forcing them to only take sealed bids and using the lowest guy, therefore throwing quality, reputation, and everything else we have built leading up to this day out the window. Builders and owners are working with such tight budgets now days, they are trying to get the most for their money, which in turn, is forcing them to go with the lowest bidder, no matter the reputation you have spent years to build or the references of the guy who just beat you by 30%!
Someone is always cheaper!
Seems like we have the same problems down here in Florida that EC's are having across the states. Depending on who you have been doing business with for the past however many years makes a big difference on how much work you currently have going. I saw many post about keeping your customers or GC's happy and you will still get a good shot at the job, but depending on who you are working with or for, that could be the farthest from the truth. Our company was built and practically funded by doing work for the Univ. of Florida, or CM's with contracts with the University. Our CM's have always loved our quality of work and finished products we have given them over the years, therefore always keeping us in mind when awarding the job even though we may not have been the low bidder. Now days though, the University is actually forcing them to only take sealed bids and using the lowest guy, therefore throwing quality, reputation, and everything else we have built leading up to this day out the window. Builders and owners are working with such tight budgets now days, they are trying to get the most for their money, which in turn, is forcing them to go with the lowest bidder, no matter the reputation you have spent years to build or the references of the guy who just beat you by 30%!
Last edited:
goldstar
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
I'm trying to understand your point of view but I'm having some difficulty. According to your calculations you are assuming that you would be doing 1 service upgrade per day, x a five day week x 52 weeks. If that's a reality in your area I want to move there and start a new business where I can assume that I can hire more people to do (5) additional service upgrades per week. What a gold mine that would be. I didn't know doing business like that was possible.:roll:
GBBOLT
Member
- Location
- Trenton, Florida
Tornadoes
Tornadoes
Only place I would even think has that much work would be the Mississippi/Alabama region. When the hurricanes hit Florida in 04' I believe it was, it was pathetic to see all the non-licensed EC's,GC's, and everyone else taking advantage of the situations.hmy:
Tornadoes
Only place I would even think has that much work would be the Mississippi/Alabama region. When the hurricanes hit Florida in 04' I believe it was, it was pathetic to see all the non-licensed EC's,GC's, and everyone else taking advantage of the situations.
hmy:
goldstar
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
This is America. There's nothing stopping you from buying something for $1.00 and selling it for $1.00. If you're lucky enough to get paid immediately you can turn around and pay your supply house within 10 days and take a 2% discount. If you have a business plan that allows you to live comfortably on that 2% God Bless You and more power to you. To quote Pierre
- Status