Tell me why PV systems are not a scam

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Just took a quick look at some sun hour charts, and it only had two cities in MI but both had more average sun hours than I get here in central NY, and it's well worth it for me.

We only pay 15 cent per kWh including taxes which makes it hard for solar to compete. In a solar class I took a few years back, we learned how to do ROI's and my area was seeing an ROI of 50 years. We have to include things like cleaning sap and goo from aphids off the panels or the will grow black sooty mold. We also have lots of trees, and people around here like trees and shade. On top of all that, we would have to contend with this:
solar-panels-Energy-Manage.jpg
 
Basically panels and inverters will be .80 per watt. Racking and BOS figure .30 to .40 per watt. Call it 1.25 per watt. In our climate a 10k system will make 12,700 KWH, and yes that takes into account clouds rain, snow, and other imperfections. So that is $1900 worth of electricity per year. You spent $12.5k. Knock off around a 4k tax credit if you have the tax liability. Seems like a no brainer. Of course I didn't count labor, my thesis was that us sparkies could and would DIY. Add in what your labor is worth if it's not something you would enjoy.
 
Basically panels and inverters will be .80 per watt. Racking and BOS figure .30 to .40 per watt. Call it 1.25 per watt. In our climate a 10k system will make 12,700 KWH, and yes that takes into account clouds rain, snow, and other imperfections. So that is $1900 worth of electricity per year. You spent $12.5k. Knock off around a 4k tax credit if you have the tax liability. Seems like a no brainer. Of course I didn't count labor, my thesis was that us sparkies could and would DIY. Add in what your labor is worth if it's not something you would enjoy.

Part of our solar energy class was conservation. I got my electric bill down to around $600 per year, living alone and conservatively.

We get no tax credits for solar. We used to, but they stopped doing it. We have to have an engineering study to be grid tied and we can't PV generate any more than 90% of our yearly use.

No matter what the math says, in our area solar isn't a good investment right now. If it were, there would be at least one company in my county that did nothing but solar installations. You could make that in the nearest 10 counties. I don't think there is a PV system within 10 miles of me, and there are probably less than a handful in my county of 100,000 people.
 
Basically panels and inverters will be .80 per watt. Racking and BOS figure .30 to .40 per watt. Call it 1.25 per watt. In our climate a 10k system will make 12,700 KWH, and yes that takes into account clouds rain, snow, and other imperfections. So that is $1900 worth of electricity per year. You spent $12.5k. Knock off around a 4k tax credit if you have the tax liability. Seems like a no brainer. Of course I didn't count labor, my thesis was that us sparkies could and would DIY. Add in what your labor is worth if it's not something you would enjoy.

For the non-sparky public, here in New Jersey you would get a price of about $35,000 for that system. And that's with the installer keeping the RET certificates.
 
Part of our solar energy class was conservation. I got my electric bill down to around $600 per year, living alone and conservatively.

We get no tax credits for solar. We used to, but they stopped doing it. We have to have an engineering study to be grid tied and we can't PV generate any more than 90% of our yearly use.

No matter what the math says, in our area solar isn't a good investment right now. If it were, there would be at least one company in my county that did nothing but solar installations. You could make that in the nearest 10 counties. I don't think there is a PV system within 10 miles of me, and there are probably less than a handful in my county of 100,000 people.

Some places just are not very solar friendly, particularly if the jurisdiction and/or utility makes requires high connection fees, "engineering" fees, etc. I wont argue about that, it is what it is. Here, pretty much the worst case for resi is the utility will charge you $300 for a transformer upgrade, but very few people even need that. Maybe that red tape and a lack of a state rebate is a deal breaker there. The only thing I will disagree with or clarify, is you get the 30% federal tax credit. I assume you mean there was some state program that they are no longer doing. Here, a state agency gives you (last I checked) .35 per watt, which really isn't that much all in all.
 
One word.

Michigan.

I think our insolation works out to about 50 watts per meter. If we had more sunny days a year I would consider it.

Insolation does not vary that much across the US. The best areas, in the southwest, are not more than twice as good as the worst, which I believe is the Olympic peninsula in WA. Why did Arizona's solar industry take off and New Mexico's didn't? The answer is not differences in insolation.

In other words, I do not buy that this is the main reason that electrofelon's suggestion does not work for you. I'm going to do it soon, now that I finally own my own home. It's going to give me electricity that costs about 3.3cents / kWh, since I'll be using some used panels. Otherwise it would cost me 5cents. I did a quick check with PVwatts on my location vs central Michigan (Houghton) and it came out to 78% of the same production in MI, which results in 6.4cents kWh. That's a deal for electricity anywhere in the US. And my house, btw, has some trees around it.

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We get no tax credits for solar.

There is still a federal tax credit.

No matter what the math says, in our area solar isn't a good investment right now. If it were, there would be at least one company in my county that did nothing but solar installations. You could make that in the nearest 10 counties. I don't think there is a PV system within 10 miles of me, and there are probably less than a handful in my county of 100,000 people.

But electrofelon is not suggesting that you make it a business, he's pointing out that it should pay for electricians as a DIY project. Now it may be true that if there were a robust and competitive solar industry in your area, then equipment prices might be a bit lower, making DIY even more attractive. But that still wouldn't be decisive. The real factor is what you get paid for the energy you export to the grid. That's going to trump everything else.
 
Getting back to the original topic, I'm surprised all you sparkies don't have PV: you can get materials for wholesale, and install it yourself for "free". The payback would be quite quick. I just transitioned from being off grid, and will be installing my 13kw system this summer. Its a no brainer.

So where do you go to get wholesale materials. I've never looked into it.
 
So where do you go to get wholesale materials. I've never looked into it.

I have an account with AEE. It was Easy. Prices seem pretty good, much better than the cheapest you can find online, and I actually buy very little stuff from them - just 4 grid tie inverters and some off grid inverters and charge controllers and odds and ends so its not like I get a volume discount (because most of my solar work is with a friend of mine and he does the material so I buy very little, just some side projects).

For panels, I would check out sun electronics, sunelec.com. They have "regular" panels, but also lots of surplus/old stock/grade B type of stuff so you can get real good deals.
 
Insolation does not vary that much across the US.

I did a quick check with PVwatts on my location vs central Michigan (Houghton) and it came out to 78% of the same production in MI, which results in 6.4cents kWh. That's a deal for electricity anywhere in the US. And my house, btw, has some trees around it.

So correct me if I am wrong.
1) If you shade a panel, you reduce the output of the panel.
2) It snows in Michigan.
3) Snow will cling to the face of the panels and shade them.
4) You are unlikely to climb onto your snow and ice covered roof to brush off the panels daily.
5) All of the above was not taken into account in the 78% figure given above.

P.S. Not even mentioning the effect of the trees.
 
Insolation does not vary that much across the US. The best areas, in the southwest, are not more than twice as good as the worst, which I believe is the Olympic peninsula in WA. Why did Arizona's solar industry take off and New Mexico's didn't? The answer is not differences in insolation.

In other words, I do not buy that this is the main reason that electrofelon's suggestion does not work for you. I'm going to do it soon, now that I finally own my own home. It's going to give me electricity that costs about 3.3cents / kWh, since I'll be using some used panels. Otherwise it would cost me 5cents. I did a quick check with PVwatts on my location vs central Michigan (Houghton) and it came out to 78% of the same production in MI, which results in 6.4cents kWh. That's a deal for electricity anywhere in the US. And my house, btw, has some trees around it.



There is still a federal tax credit.



But electrofelon is not suggesting that you make it a business, he's pointing out that it should pay for electricians as a DIY project. Now it may be true that if there were a robust and competitive solar industry in your area, then equipment prices might be a bit lower, making DIY even more attractive. But that still wouldn't be decisive. The real factor is what you get paid for the energy you export to the grid. That's going to trump everything else.

So I am expected to either go on my roof and install panels, which isn't happening, or, failing that, place the panels in the back yard and dig a 100 foot long trench, which also isn't happening.

DIY is not for me.

I would also have to do a panel upgrade, which would have to happen DIY or not.

Once installed, my property value will increase, and so will my property taxes.

Once installed, I would have to keep them clean in the summer, and free of snow in the winter. The snow thing would not be taken care of unless I paid to have it done.

Federal tax credits only help people that pay federal taxes, correct? What if a person is on SSI and doesn't make enough to pay federal taxes?

In the event of an equipment failure, who is going to pay for the troubleshooting, repair and/or equipment replacement?

Last year my total electric was $612. $84 of that was a 7 dollar a month system access fee, which won't go away, so I spent $528 on kWh's.

The info I got from the solar energy class was helpful. I cut my energy costs markedly without buying a solar system. We also learned how to do accurate ROI reports. We got to bring home the cool insolation measuring gadgets and take actual measurements.

Trust me, if I could actually save money by having a solar system here, I would. So would nearly everyone. But, they don't. Don't take my word for it, my zip code is 49442. Take a look at the area using Bing Maps' aerial view and look for panels.

While we were in class, the big class project was to do an estimate and ROI of a fairly large sized solar system and present it to the owner of the company. This was done by every class, and presented to different companies.

So far, only one business bought the idea, and it is being used as show and tell by the college. The owner admits he bought the system for ecological and educational purposes rather than economical.

If solar was a good deal, I would consider it. It would still have to be a good deal after paying others to maintain it, though. If I wanted to trade labor for energy I would own a wood stove.
 
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