Tell me why PV systems are not a scam

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K8MHZ said:
This is typical of my area. Look close at the trees. There are no leaves on them in the picture. If there were, none of the homes would barely be visible. Also note the lack of solar panels.

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Well, as I have said before, solar does not work for everyone but that certainly does not mean that it does not work for anyone. I design PV systems for a living but I do not have it on my home because, like you, I live in an area with lots of trees. My neighbor to the south has lots of trees taller than my house.
 
ggunn said:
Well, as I have said before, solar does not work for everyone but that certainly does not mean that it does not work for anyone.
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I agree. I also do not think solar systems are a scam. They make electricity just like they are supposed to when light hits them.

People just need to realize how well, or poorly, they will work.

People also need to realize that scaling can make all the difference in the world. A huge megawatt solar farm feeding the grid will make electricity much cheaper than a 10kw home sized one. The same goes for any type of electric generation.

I am all for solar energy. I am, however, aware that for personal use, at least mine, it's not going to be an investment, rather an expense in the long run.

The numbers may tell a different story if I were to do an ROI on a system that was meant to power an additional, optional load. Like an electric car. One reason solar isn't a good idea for me, is due to my low electric use. If I was using electricity to charge a car, my bill would be higher and the ROI may pay off in 20 years instead of 50. Oh, for the record, our ROI considered 50 years to be the end of life for a system.
 
ggunn said:
Well, as I have said before, solar does not work for everyone but that certainly does not mean that it does not work for anyone. I design PV systems for a living but I do not have it on my home because, like you, I live in an area with lots of trees. My neighbor to the south has lots of trees taller than my house.
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Thank you for keeping the trees.

I live on a 3/4 acre lot and have over 40 trees. A half dozen of them are close to 70' tall. The average tree height is 40-45 feet.

My yard is nice and cool in the summer. My electric bill spikes to almost $80 in August, though. :angel:
 
K8MHZ said:
So I am expected to either go on my roof and install panels, which isn't happening, or, failing that, place the panels in the back yard and dig a 100 foot long trench, which also isn't happening.

DIY is not for me.
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Well then the weather where you live isn't the reason you can't follow electrofelon's suggestion.

I would also have to do a panel upgrade, which would have to happen DIY or not.
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We do panel upgrades for people all the time. Again, this isn't the important factor.

Once installed, my property value will increase, and so will my property taxes.
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Yes, this could be relevant...

Once installed, I would have to keep them clean in the summer, and free of snow in the winter.
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I tell my customers not to clean their panels, for safety reasons and because the benefit is not worth it.

Federal tax credits only help people that pay federal taxes, correct? What if a person is on SSI and doesn't make enough to pay federal taxes?
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Fair point, but following on the part where electrofelon suggested DIY, what does a 30% tax credit matter if you're getting 60% off by doing it yourself? Btw, if someone pays ANY federal tax they can apply the tax credit to that, because it's a tax credit not a deduction. And it can be rolled over to the next year.

In the event of an equipment failure, who is going to pay for the troubleshooting, repair and/or equipment replacement?
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Um, if you contract, the contractor. If you DIY, it's 'free'.

Last year my total electric was $612. $84 of that was a 7 dollar a month system access fee, which won't go away, so I spent $528 on kWh's.
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I'm paying a little more than half as much as you, and solar is going to pencil out so well I'm going to install more than I currently need just because I can. I'll use some more electric space heat to save on gas and probably install some heat pumps.

The info I got from the solar energy class was helpful. I cut my energy costs markedly without buying a solar system. We also learned how to do accurate ROI reports. We got to bring home the cool insolation measuring gadgets and take actual measurements.

Trust me, if I could actually save money by having a solar system here, I would. So would nearly everyone. But, they don't. Don't take my word for it, my zip code is 49442. Take a look at the area using Bing Maps' aerial view and look for panels.
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I believe you, I just don't believe you've demonstrated that you understand why that is. Or, more to my concern, you are making a lot statements that may mislead readers into falsely believing that solar isn't a good investment where they live.


K8MHZ said:
This is typical of my area. Look close at the trees. There are no leaves on them in the picture. If there were, the homes would barely be visible. Also note the lack of solar panels.

View attachment 19617
Click to expand...

Here is a capture of similar scale from a California suburb with more trees, and hills. There are at least 6 solar electric systems in the picture (not to be confused with several solar thermal pool heating systems). So you see, the trees aren't the reason for the difference.

Capture.jpg

K8MHZ said:
People also need to realize that scaling can make all the difference in the world. A huge megawatt solar farm feeding the grid will make electricity much cheaper than a 10kw home sized one. The same goes for any type of electric generation.
Click to expand...

Yes, well, it's very important if residential exports to the grid get paid closer to retail or wholesale rate. A 10kW home system is completely competitive at the former, not the latter, unless its DIY.

The numbers may tell a different story if I were to do an ROI on a system that was meant to power an additional, optional load.
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No, the numbers would tell a different story if your state regulatory environment was different.

... One reason solar isn't a good idea for me, is due to my low electric use. If I was using electricity to charge a car, my bill would be higher and the ROI may pay off in 20 years instead of 50. Oh, for the record, our ROI considered 50 years to be the end of life for a system.
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See above. You are using a pretty average amount of electricity compared to my company's customers. That's not it.
 
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peter d said:
Anything that requires subsidies and tax credits to be viable is a scam.
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As a general statement that shows a lot of ignorance of economics and economic history. As far as energy supplies go, they all tend to get subsidized to a degree by any competent government, because they are so important to the rest of economic activity. If all energy subsidies in the US were eliminated, solar would be perfectly competitive. The rest of the economy would suffer a lot though.
 
ggunn said:
Well, as I have said before, solar does not work for everyone but that certainly does not mean that it does not work for anyone. I design PV systems for a living but I do not have it on my home because, like you, I live in an area with lots of trees. My neighbor to the south has lots of trees taller than my house.
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Good points from a professional if I may say so. Insolation so variable with latitude, time of day, trees or other obstacles blocking it, the nature of the residences.....and probably many other factors.

A couple of examples. New York has many high rise buildings. Vertical walls. Dense populations whether commercial or residential, the issue is the same. The only place for solar would be the roof. For all the 50 floors beneath. Same as London, Tokyo, Hong Kong etc.

Each case need to be looked individually.
 
Coppersmith said:
So correct me if I am wrong.
1) If you shade a panel, you reduce the output of the panel.
2) It snows in Michigan.
3) Snow will cling to the face of the panels and shade them.
4) You are unlikely to climb onto your snow and ice covered roof to brush off the panels daily.
5) All of the above was not taken into account in the 78% figure given above.

P.S. Not even mentioning the effect of the trees.
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How much snow will cling to the face of a panel depends on the angle they are installed. How much reduction in power depends on the thickness of the snow; snow is transulcent, and PV panels do not need direct sunlight to produce power. Some more potential factors are that if there's any reflected irradiance from snowfall on the ground that can increase power output, as do low temperatures. Add to this that under a net metering regime you typically do not count on high production in the winter in any case, and the overall difference to the figure above is likely to be in the single digits of percentage, and doesn't affect the point of the comparison I was making regarding levelized cost of electricity. IOW, all of this is still several times lower as a factor than whether someone gets paid a retail or wholesale rate for exports to the grid. Or whether average electricity prices in your area are 10cents or 25cents per kWh.

PS... Shut up about the damn trees! :lol: Lots of places have trees! See above. My place has trees and so with respect to it being a comparison of my own house to K8MHZ, yes that was taken into account.
 
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jaggedben said:
Shut up about the damn trees! :lol:
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I don’t have to.:p I like trees.:)

Trees
BY JOYCE KILMER
I think that I shall never see
A poem lovely as a tree.

A tree whose hungry mouth is prest
Against the earth’s sweet flowing breast;

A tree that looks at God all day,
And lifts her leafy arms to pray;

A tree that may in Summer wear
A nest of robins in her hair;

Upon whose bosom snow has lain;
Who intimately lives with rain.

Poems are made by fools like me,
But only God can make a tree.
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Mark, you make some fair points. You have some circumstances that may make it not worth it, including being an electrician and whining about doing a panel upgrade :p ;)

For contrast let me give you, and everyone else who is reading, my situation which is on the opposite end of the spectrum. I need to build a shed for my sawmill. It needs to be about 20 by 40. I will be using the panels as the roof. I can build the structure to be oriented and sloped ideally for the solar. By using the panels as the roof I will save around a buck a square foot in roofing material, and a lot in rails, mounting etc (I will need some commodity aluminum strips for my homebrew setup, but much cheaper than rails, metal roofing clips, etc). Also I am very much looking forward to doing the project so I don't care about my labor. My house is still a work in progress so I can design its systems around the "free" solar energy. This means I can do heat and domestic H20 with electric which is cheap capital cost. IF I didn't have solar, I wouldn't be doing electric (I'm in upstate NY) so would incur a lot more capital cost for heating. I probably will have an electric tank for the radiant, and another tank for domestic. My house needs air conditioning because its a dome house and has some big windows that get direct sun in the summer. The solar will be 12-13 KW, and will make around 13,000KWH per year and will easily power the whole house. I will be comfortable year round and wont have to exchange comfort for saving some $$ (which I know I would do, I'm cheap). Basically the panels and inverters are .83/watt so say I have 10k plus a grand for mounting hardware and material. I don't have much tax liability, probably the most I can get from that is a grand per year for two years. NY has a .35/watt state incentive, however I probably will just skip that; its not worth the hassle and red tape and I can cut a few corners if I don't have it. So I think its well worth it, plus I will really enjoy doing it, and the sawmill shed will be nice and light from the light passing through the panels. Its something I will see everyday and love.
 
electrofelon said:
Mark, you make some fair points. You have some circumstances that may make it not worth it, including being an electrician and whining about doing a panel upgrade :p ;)

For contrast let me give you, and everyone else who is reading, my situation which is on the opposite end of the spectrum. I need to build a shed for my sawmill. It needs to be about 20 by 40. I will be using the panels as the roof. I can build the structure to be oriented and sloped ideally for the solar. By using the panels as the roof I will save around a buck a square foot in roofing material, and a lot in rails, mounting etc (I will need some commodity aluminum strips for my homebrew setup, but much cheaper than rails, metal roofing clips, etc). Also I am very much looking forward to doing the project so I don't care about my labor. My house is still a work in progress so I can design its systems around the "free" solar energy. This means I can do heat and domestic H20 with electric which is cheap capital cost. IF I didn't have solar, I wouldn't be doing electric (I'm in upstate NY) so would incur a lot more capital cost for heating. I probably will have an electric tank for the radiant, and another tank for domestic. My house needs air conditioning because its a dome house and has some big windows that get direct sun in the summer. The solar will be 12-13 KW, and will make around 13,000KWH per year and will easily power the whole house. I will be comfortable year round and wont have to exchange comfort for saving some $$ (which I know I would do, I'm cheap). Basically the panels and inverters are .83/watt so say I have 10k plus a grand for mounting hardware and material. I don't have much tax liability, probably the most I can get from that is a grand per year for two years. NY has a .35/watt state incentive, however I probably will just skip that; its not worth the hassle and red tape and I can cut a few corners if I don't have it. So I think its well worth it, plus I will really enjoy doing it, and the sawmill shed will be nice and light from the light passing through the panels. Its something I will see everyday and love.
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Sounds like a neat set-up. I'd love to see some pictures
 
electrofelon said:
Mark, you make some fair points. You have some circumstances that may make it not worth it, including being an electrician and whining about doing a panel upgrade :p ;)

For contrast let me give you, and everyone else who is reading, my situation which is on the opposite end of the spectrum. I need to build a shed for my sawmill. It needs to be about 20 by 40. I will be using the panels as the roof. I can build the structure to be oriented and sloped ideally for the solar. By using the panels as the roof I will save around a buck a square foot in roofing material, and a lot in rails, mounting etc (I will need some commodity aluminum strips for my homebrew setup, but much cheaper than rails, metal roofing clips, etc). Also I am very much looking forward to doing the project so I don't care about my labor. My house is still a work in progress so I can design its systems around the "free" solar energy. This means I can do heat and domestic H20 with electric which is cheap capital cost. IF I didn't have solar, I wouldn't be doing electric (I'm in upstate NY) so would incur a lot more capital cost for heating. I probably will have an electric tank for the radiant, and another tank for domestic. My house needs air conditioning because its a dome house and has some big windows that get direct sun in the summer. The solar will be 12-13 KW, and will make around 13,000KWH per year and will easily power the whole house. I will be comfortable year round and wont have to exchange comfort for saving some $$ (which I know I would do, I'm cheap). Basically the panels and inverters are .83/watt so say I have 10k plus a grand for mounting hardware and material. I don't have much tax liability, probably the most I can get from that is a grand per year for two years. NY has a .35/watt state incentive, however I probably will just skip that; its not worth the hassle and red tape and I can cut a few corners if I don't have it. So I think its well worth it, plus I will really enjoy doing it, and the sawmill shed will be nice and light from the light passing through the panels. Its something I will see everyday and love.
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If I enjoyed such projects, I would feel differently about building my own solar system. That is a BIG plus for you. I am not a good fabricator and don't care for it at all. I would rather troubleshoot any day.
 
jaggedben said:
Well then the weather where you live isn't the reason you can't follow electrofelon's suggestion.



We do panel upgrades for people all the time. Again, this isn't the important factor.



Yes, this could be relevant...



I tell my customers not to clean their panels, for safety reasons and because the benefit is not worth it.



Fair point, but following on the part where electrofelon suggested DIY, what does a 30% tax credit matter if you're getting 60% off by doing it yourself? Btw, if someone pays ANY federal tax they can apply the tax credit to that, because it's a tax credit not a deduction. And it can be rolled over to the next year.



Um, if you contract, the contractor. If you DIY, it's 'free'.



I'm paying a little more than half as much as you, and solar is going to pencil out so well I'm going to install more than I currently need just because I can. I'll use some more electric space heat to save on gas and probably install some heat pumps.

The info I got from the solar energy class was helpful. I cut my energy costs markedly without buying a solar system. We also learned how to do accurate ROI reports. We got to bring home the cool insolation measuring gadgets and take actual measurements.



I believe you, I just don't believe you've demonstrated that you understand why that is. Or, more to my concern, you are making a lot statements that may mislead readers into falsely believing that solar isn't a good investment where they live.




Here is a capture of similar scale from a California suburb with more trees, and hills. There are at least 6 solar electric systems in the picture (not to be confused with several solar thermal pool heating systems). So you see, the trees aren't the reason for the difference.

View attachment 19618



Yes, well, it's very important if residential exports to the grid get paid closer to retail or wholesale rate. A 10kW home system is completely competitive at the former, not the latter, unless its DIY.



No, the numbers would tell a different story if your state regulatory environment was different.



See above. You are using a pretty average amount of electricity compared to my company's customers. That's not it.
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Although no single aspect of what you posted kills the solar paybacks, it's the combination of them that does it.

A picture is worth a 1000 words though. You made my point with your picture of California. In California, a land of sunshine, solar is viable and people use the systems. Where I live, nada. The better the payback, the more people will use them. Since there is nearly no payback in my area, people aren't buying them.
 
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