jaggedben
Senior Member
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- Northern California
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- Solar and Energy Storage Installer
What specifically do you think is unsafe?
Temporary Emergency Generator Installations
- Thread starter superdave02
- Start date
What specifically do you think is unsafe?
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
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- engineer
this would appear to be a clear code violation. the N-G bond is only allowed to be at one point. I think to be code compliant you would need to seperate the N-G at the generator end.
the code also requires an EGC be run with the circuit conductors so if you are not running one, that is also a code violation.
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
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- engineer
I think he is making a joke.
jaggedben
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern California
- Occupation
- Solar and Energy Storage Installer
There's only one N-G bond. The generator frame is not G if there's no grounding electrode.
I don't see what section requires an EGC. 230.35 (B) requires an SSBJ but that's for 'Permanently Installed Generators' which this is not.
The setup appears to comply with 250.34(2).
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
The code allows for multiple grounding electrodes to be connected in multiple places. You just cannot have a N-G bond in more than one place.
The problem is that the code uses the term grounding when it really means bonding. Bonding is connecting all the metal parts together. Whether you connect those parts to earth is something separate. The EGC does not care if it is connected to earth at one point or 100 points, or for that matter no place at all. The earth is not involved in the GF clearing mechanism at all and that is what the EGC is for.
I believe there is a place in chapter three that requires all circuit conductors be accompanied by an EGC. You don't get to avoid the requirements found in other chapters just because it is a generator. The SSBJ is just a special kind of EGC.
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Fred B
Senior Member
- Location
- Upstate, NY
- Occupation
- Electrician
Two, NG bond in panel and at genset. Absence of a GE, if frame is on the earth, only creates potentially a high impendence ground, where the Neutral is bonded to frame.
Check out requirements in article 445
jaggedben
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern California
- Occupation
- Solar and Energy Storage Installer
Ya'll should cite chapter and verse if you think there's a violation. Or if there's a danger, explain it precisely. There's a lot of hand waiving going on here, IMO.
The GFCI requirements? Might be an issue with the OP's setup, but I don't see what it has to do with grounding electrodes or having an EGC/SSBJ.
The GFCI requirements? Might be an issue with the OP's setup, but I don't see what it has to do with grounding electrodes or having an EGC/SSBJ.
Fred B
Senior Member
- Location
- Upstate, NY
- Occupation
- Electrician
2020 NFPA 70 Workbook illustration related to 445.11 enhanced content. in Link
link.nfpa.org
At genset, without a NG bond, EGC bonds to main panel and no GE at Genset,
A genset With NG bond, Neutral required to be switched, and still has EGC and but has a GE at Genset.
NFPA LiNK®
The leading information and knowledge resource on fire, electrical and related hazards.
link.nfpa.org
At genset, without a NG bond, EGC bonds to main panel and no GE at Genset,
A genset With NG bond, Neutral required to be switched, and still has EGC and but has a GE at Genset.
jaggedben
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern California
- Occupation
- Solar and Energy Storage Installer
Can't read your link but it's irrelevant, workbook illustrations are not binding. The third option being talked about is no EGC, bonding at both ends. This is how services are done and it used to be allowed for outbuildings, too. What is the danger?2020 NFPA 70 Workbook illustration related to 445.11 enhanced content. in Link
NFPA LiNK®
The leading information and knowledge resource on fire, electrical and related hazards.
At genset, without a NG bond, EGC bonds to main panel and no GE at Genset,
A genset With NG bond, Neutral required to be switched, and still has EGC and but has a GE at Genset.
jaggedben
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern California
- Occupation
- Solar and Energy Storage Installer
The OP is a bit light on detail, but it seems to me like what's going on here is that the OP is temporarily taking the place of a utility by supplying services. Whether that makes the OP a utility is outside of the scope of the NEC, and if it's determined that the OP is a utility or effectively acting as one, then their installations are outside the scope of the NEC as he opines. If it's decided that the OP is not a utility and is performing installations that are subject to the NEC, then we have a different problem, which is that the NEC is written as if it's impossible (by definition) for anything to supply power to a service other than a utility. None of the NEC sections on generators imagine this situation. (This is also a problem for privately owned microgrids, but I digress.) So talk of transfer switches and generators with receptacles is just off the mark. It's a loophole that the NEC simply does not address.
As Dave said above, without knowing the legal framework that encompasses the OPs work and knowing who will enforce it, we simply don't know if the NEC applies. It seems if the guy is a FEMA contractor, we're likely talking about work being performed under a state of emergency by definition, so acting as if the normal rules apply is likely not warranted.
As Dave said above, without knowing the legal framework that encompasses the OPs work and knowing who will enforce it, we simply don't know if the NEC applies. It seems if the guy is a FEMA contractor, we're likely talking about work being performed under a state of emergency by definition, so acting as if the normal rules apply is likely not warranted.