temporary or permanent

[criselect]

After rough wire we install outlets on the washer,refrigerator and other circuits in the house so the contractors don't have cords running all over the place. At our rough wire inspection the inspector told us we had to but gfi's on those circuits because they are temporary. The way I see it they are part of the permanent wiring of the house and not required to have gfi protection. The inspector is referring to 527.6 A & B ground fault protection for personnel 2002 nec. It does say that portable gfi cord sets are permitted.
Well this is my question at what point during construction do those outlets become permanent and not my responsibility to provide gfi protection?

 

[charlie b]

Re: temporary or permanent

This is a tough one, and one that I have never encountered before. I agree with the Inspector's call. But let's be clear about our use of terms.

Well this is my question at what point during construction do those outlets become permanent and not my responsibility to provide gfi protection?

My view is that the outlets are permanent as soon as they are "roughed in." My view is also that it is not your responsibility to provide GFI protection, when other trades are using the outlets for their construction efforts. It is theirs. If they want to use an outlet that has not yet been "completed" (let's call that as the time when the wall is finished and the cover plate is installed), then it is up to them to buy their own GFI cords.

 

[rcarroll]

Re: temporary or permanent

In my town, the POCO will not energize a building unless there are GFI temp outlets. Also, I had an OSHA inspector tell me that all safety procedures apply until finished flooring goes down.

 

[rbalex]

Re: temporary or permanent

Charlie B?s position is correct. This was a major issue in the 2000 70E Tech Committee. The consensus (in this case, very broad) was that wiring becomes ?permanent? when the part of the electrical installation under consideration would no longer be modified from what it would be when ultimately be used in the facility ? ?finishing? notwithstanding.

At that point, any GFCI requirements under Art 527 (or its equivalent) necessary to complete construction while using the ?permanent? wiring was the responsibility of the employer of the craft involved. Typically, this would be GFCI cord sets.

 

[davedottcom]

Re: temporary or permanent

Originally posted by rbalex:
Charlie B?s position is correct. This was a major issue in the 2000 70E Tech Committee. The consensus (in this case, very broad) was that wiring becomes ?permanent? when the part of the electrical installation under consideration would no longer be modified from what it would be when ultimately be used in the facility ? ?finishing? notwithstanding.

I disagree. I feel that if the outlets are to be used during construction they should be GFCI.
I always replace any duplex outlets that are installed during construction with new ones since they always get slopped up with paint, spackle, etc. And that is not considered permanent since it is being replaced!
If you are Not going to replace them, why not just install GFCI outlets where you will already need them? Bath room, Garage, etc...

Dave

 

[charlie b]

Re: temporary or permanent

Are you suggesting that the other trades should be limited in their use of temporary power to the "permanent" GFI receptacles in the bathrooms, kitchen, or garage?

 

[davedottcom]

Re: temporary or permanent

I'm suggesting the GFCI outlets are installed for Temp. power. If the EC decides to leave them in (permanently) after the house is completed, it's his call.

It's difficult to imagine a GFCI outlet being installed permanently on a rough without someone modifying it!
As RBALEX wrote: "The consensus (in this case, very broad) was that wiring becomes ?permanent? when the part of the electrical installation under consideration would no longer be modified from what it would be when ultimately be used in the facility"

I can't imagine the drywaller, spackler, and painter all doing their necesary work "Around" the GFCI outlet without "Modifing" it. (Removing it, re-attaching it, removing the plate, replacing the plate. If the outlet is tightened all the way to the box before drywall, it will need to be moved out, etc...That's modifying to me!

 

[physis]

Re: temporary or permanent

I like the way Bob's reporting it.

I think it's still ok to want to use GFI if you're so inclined. But that doesn't make something not permanent.

 

[davedottcom]

Re: temporary or permanent

Originally posted by physis:
[QB] I like the way Bob's reporting it.

You always did like Bob best!

 

[physis]

Re: temporary or permanent

Dave, It's just that Bob isn't making me do extra work.

 

[rbalex]

Re: temporary or permanent

Originally posted by davedottcom:

Originally posted by physis:
[QB] I like the way Bob's reporting it.

You always did like Bob best!

Heh,

actually I have no problem with Dave's approach either. Nor would the Tech Committee. Remember, in this case the 70E emphasis is who is responsible for the worker's safety rather than who accomplishes it.

Side note: "If the outlet is tightened all the way to the box before drywall, it will need to be moved out, etc...That's modifying to me!" I believe the TC would consider that an adjustment rather than a modification, but the issue Dave is addressing is still valid where it reflects potential (possibly likely?) damage by other crafts.

 

[davedottcom]

Re: temporary or permanent

rbalex, You're my new best friend!

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: temporary or permanent

Speaking for myself, I always change out the construction power receptacles I leave energized at the end of my rough in.

I have a collection of devices that I've trimmed down the yokes on. None of the yoke sticks past the edge of the box. That way, the wall surface can be installed and I can level a new device without a blowout and additional repair.

As for whether the construction power use of the devices I install are GFI . . . well, I try to imagine sitting on the witness stand and explaining why I energized the circuit for construction use, and didn't install GFIs.

 

[hardworkingstiff]

Re: temporary or permanent

We can't get power in Wilmington until the finals are complete (and that's everyone's final), unless you get a temporary release for checking out equipment. Then the General has to post a $1,000 bond or put up $1,000 and fill out paper work saying the power will only be used for checking out equipment. We are not allowed to use non GFCI protected outlets for power for construction tools. I've been warned that if a non GFCI receptacle is being used for construction, I (Electrical contractor) am being held accountable for the violation.

 

[physis]

Re: temporary or permanent

We can't get power in Wilmington until the finals are complete (and that's everyone's final)

Yeah, that makes lot of sense. I guess the generators all the contractors are using don't make electricity. Only noise. :roll:

 

[be4jc]

Re: temporary or permanent

I personaly cant understand why any jurisdiction would not give a temp. power to a building under construction.
B.E. Building Inspector II
General B Contractor

 

[hardworkingstiff]

Re: temporary or permanent

Originally posted by physis:

Yeah, that makes lot of sense. I guess the generators all the contractors are using don't make electricity. Only noise. :roll:

I don't make the rules, just try to get by.

 

[rbalex]

Re: temporary or permanent

The approach in Lou's jurisdiction is also valid - you simply don't permit use of the "permanent" receptacles during construction at all.

It's important to remember FedOSHA has a fairly broad definition of "construction" activities and GCFI (or AEGC if appropriate) protection is still required; however, cord sets are generally the anticipated solution.

If a receptacle(s) is installed or exists as part of the permanent wiring of the building or structure and is used for temporary electric power, ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel shall be provided. For the purposes of this section, cord sets or devices incorporating listed ground-fault circuit interrupter protection for personnel identified for portable use shall be permitted .

Edit add: Italics and Bold Italics mine

[ August 25, 2005, 03:09 PM: Message edited by: rbalex ]

 

[LarryFine]

Re: temporary or permanent

Here in Va., also, the acceptable provision to have the new panel energized is service complete to meter, all grounds and neutrals landed, and a GFCI in the laundry outlet.

 

[luke warmwater]

Re: temporary or permanent

We install GFCI receptacles at rough-in. The ears are cut off, so they are flush with the edges of boxes.
When we do final, we swap them out and re-use them on another rough.

We typicall energize the laundry, frig, all bathrooms, and outside receptacles.