temporary or permanent

[George Stolz]

Re: temporary or permanent

Originally posted by rbalex:
...however, cord sets are generally the anticipated solution.

I wouldn't say that's really the NEC's (words) stance:

If a receptacle(s) is installed or exists as part of the permanent wiring of the building or structure and is used for temporary electric power, ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel shall be provided.

The NEC is a code for electricians. So they are the ones who would need to be doing the "providing" for the code to mean anything. Is there generally a cord-set GFCI dispenser in the Blue Room? The most cost-effective method of complying with this section is a GFCI receptacle. Who literally provides subs with cord-sets?

For the purposes of this section, cord sets or devices incorporating listed ground-fault circuit interrupter protection for personnel identified for portable use shall be permitted.

I can't believe my eyes. That's got to be the silliest sentence in the book.

[ August 26, 2005, 08:13 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]

 

[rbalex]

Re: temporary or permanent

Originally posted by georgestolz:
I wouldn't say that's really the NEC's (words) stance:...

I probably should have noted I was citing 70E, 410.4(B)(1), rather than the NEC.

As far as what was "anticipated" I guess I can only say, "trust me."

Despite appearances in some areas, the 70E TC did attempt to be practical in most cases. The emphasis is that the employer must provide the GFCI protection. Remember, depending on the actual work involved there may not be any electrical contractor on site at all. What is not permitted is the use of ?permanent? receptacles without auxiliary GFCI (or AEGC) protection for ?construction? work no matter who is executing it.

 

[iwire]

Re: temporary or permanent

Originally posted by georgestolz:
The NEC is a code for electricians. So they are the ones who would need to be doing the "providing" for the code to mean anything. Is there generally a cord-set GFCI dispenser in the Blue Room? The most cost-effective method of complying with this section is a GFCI receptacle. Who literally provides subs with cord-sets?

George you have to broaden your horizons.

Here where I work we provide plenty of temp GFCI temporary receptacles for use during most of the construction project.

At some point these must be removed and we fire up the permanent circuits that do not have GFCI protection.

Once this happens our office sends a letter to the GC, copies of the letter get posted in prominent places all over the job.

The letter says that we have pulled the GFCI protection off the job and that all subs are responsible for there own GFCI protection.

The subs we work with are familiar with the requirements and they bring their own GFCI cord sets which are typically just a 3' '3-way' cord with a GFCI in it.

George if you go by yourself to work at someones house and need to use power you are supposed to use a GFCI cord set. Your employer could be fined by OSHA if you got a shock and it was determined you where not using GFCI protection.

Now I realize that the chances of OSHA being on the jobs you work are slim but those are the rules as they have been taught to me.

You may think this is odd but it does work, the other trades we work with know the rules and a GFCI cord set is as much their responsibility as having safe ladders, or the right foot wear.

[ August 26, 2005, 05:55 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]

 

[augie47]

Re: temporary or permanent

I personaly cant understand why any jurisdiction would not give a temp. power to a building under construction.

Different areas = differnet circumstances and different rules.
Here, we are blessed with homeowners permits. The regulations are so limited, that with-holding power is the only real tool we have to assure all regulations are met. If power was allowed on every job, it would become a nightmare assuring a final, inspection was ever completed, and difficult corrections performed. With the one shot, homeowner jobs, theres no "next job" to rely on. Several of the incorporated cities in this area rely on the "deposit for power" rule, but for the most part, their inspection depts. work with licensed contractors and also have authority to cite non-compliant owners to court.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: temporary or permanent

So if there is remodeling going on in a factory is it the electricians job to prevent the use of outlets that are not in the scope of what he is doing.Where and who put that demand on the EC ?Are we to replace everything with gfci recepts till its over ? Why not just put the burden on the ones that need electric ?

 

[iwire]

Re: temporary or permanent

Originally posted by jimwalker:
Why not just put the burden on the ones that need electric ?

 

[jimwalker]

Re: temporary or permanent

But we see plenty of use of outlets that are not gfci protected.Seen several portable lights plugged into outlets that were simply still live and not gfci.Rules simply don't seem to be followed here.

 

[iwire]

Re: temporary or permanent

Here is another GFCI gizmo they gave me to use, it fits in a tool bag no problem.

 

[iwire]

Re: temporary or permanent

Originally posted by jimwalker:
But we see plenty of use of outlets that are not gfci protected.Seen several portable lights plugged into outlets that were simply still live and not gfci.Rules simply don't seem to be followed here.

Of course the rules get ignored when people do not know about them.

 

[iwire]

Re: temporary or permanent

Here is a fairly recent OSHA interpretation that shows that the EC is not responsible for providing other subs GFCI protection.

Application of 1926.404(b)(1)

 

[ryan_618]

Re: temporary or permanent

As the AHJ, I got tired of being the GFCI police really quick. When I inspect a job for temporary power to allow a meter to be installed, I always sheck for GFCI, including 240 volt receptacles. After that, I don't check to see what is happening. I think an inspector could spend an entire day trying to address this issue. I simply quit dealing with and let the contrators police their own. I think if someone removes GFCI protection it is their problem, not mine .

 

[iwire]

Re: temporary or permanent

Originally posted by ryan_618:
As the AHJ, I got tired of being the GFCI police really quick.

For some reason I can not read that with out Cheap Tricks "Dream Police" playing in my head. :roll:

 

[ryan_618]

Re: temporary or permanent



And I can't think of the dream police without thinking of the movie Fast Times at Ridegmont High.

 

[physis]

Re: temporary or permanent

And I can't think of the movie Fast Times at Ridgemont High without thinking of the seen from Porkey's in the principals office about the posters with a picture of the tallywacker.

 

[luke warmwater]

Re: temporary or permanent

This one time, at band camp,...Oh never mind.

 

[peter d]

Re: temporary or permanent

Originally posted by luke warmwater:
This one time, at band camp,...Oh never mind.

Yeah, nevermind.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: temporary or permanent

Originally posted by iwire:
At some point these must be removed and we fire up the permanent circuits that do not have GFCI protection.

And at that moment, the permanent structural wiring and devices are installed: there is no further "temporary" use of the permanent wiring. It has become.

Once this happens our office sends a letter to the GC, copies of the letter get posted in prominent places all over the job.

The letter says that we have pulled the GFCI protection off the job and that all subs are responsible for there own GFCI protection.

The subs we work with are familiar with the requirements and they bring their own GFCI cord sets which are typically just a 3' '3-way' cord with a GFCI in it.

George if you go by yourself to work at someones house and need to use power you are supposed to use a GFCI cord set. Your employer could be fined by OSHA if you got a shock and it was determined you where not using GFCI protection.

Now I realize that the chances of OSHA being on the jobs you work are slim but those are the rules as they have been taught to me.

You may think this is odd but it does work, the other trades we work with know the rules and a GFCI cord set is as much their responsibility as having safe ladders, or the right foot wear.

This is just so utterly...completely...insanely foreign to me. It's nuts.

Why the (honk) am I required by OSHA to utilize GFCI protection in locations where it is not required, and where ten billion people could plug in and be perfectly fine and legal; but when I plug in, I have to use a GFCI cord set? Ludicrous!

Have the lawyers completely overwhelmed everything?!?

Inconceivable! I am so going to go live in the woods somewhere...

 

[physis]

Re: temporary or permanent

I've been keeping my mouth shut so far but I have to agree with you George.

I've spared the forum a rather lengthy "gripe" I'd initially written.

Yes, I hate the "fact" that lawyer lead us more than most anything else.

 

[iwire]

Re: temporary or permanent

George I don't expect to change how things are done on your jobs, but you do have to realize that things are done differently all over the place. I can also guaranty after a couple of OSHA fines your employer would have you using GFCIs all the time.

 

[iwire]

Re: temporary or permanent

Originally posted by luke warmwater:
This one time, at band camp,...

I was plugging my amp into a non GFCI receptacle and....