Tesla Powerwall 3 Causing Eaton AFCI breakers to trip during off grid test ?

T

Thursday

New User
Location
California
Occupation
Electrician
Hi All,

Posting this as a question, not a statement because it hasn't been proven yet.
Ive installed a Powerwall 3 with the BUS, per the Tesla Manual ( I am in fact a Tesla Certified Installer, have installed dozen's of these units in the past couple years)

The system is commissioned, working fine per the Tesla Installer App (Tesla One).

The problem arises in two different ways, both related to nuisance trips of Eaton AFCI and dual purpose AFCi/GFI 20 A 1P breakers.

1st) if the system is left on for any length of time ( say more than one day), a random number of breakers in the panel board will trip ( resetting them works temporarily, then they flash the 6 light self test error code and eventually trip again)

2nd) if the system is forced to do a backup test, using either the main breaker or via the installer app, the same breakers trip instantly, and then... this is where it gets interesting, will not hold in the closed position after being reset. They trip again instantly when in off grid mode.

Tesla Tech support so far has denied any issue with there system, once again, it looks fine on monitoring. But clearly something is up. Im not an expert on power quality. Maybe someone here is ??
 
Thursday said:
( resetting them works temporarily, then they flash the 6 light self test error code and eventually trip again)
Click to expand...
6 blinks means the breaker is defective.
Verify its 6 blinks:
The last trip code can be recalled at any time by following these steps.
1. Turn the breaker handle to the OFF position
2. Press and hold the “TEST” button
3. While holding the “TEST” button, turn the breaker handle to ON position
4. Release the “TEST” button
5. The red LED will blink the trip code for 30 iterations, beginning approximately 3 seconds after the reset.
 
Here are the Eaton error light codes:

0 Mechanical Disconnect. The breaker has detected an overload, short circuit or was manually turned off.
1 Low Current Arc. A low current “series” arc has been detected within one of the current pathways. These arcs are typically found in worn or degraded appliance and extension cords, poor connections in appliances or fixtures, or in contacts within equipment.
2 High Current Arc. A high current “parallel” arc has been detected between two conductors. These arcs are usually found in installed wiring where the wire has been compromised by a nail or screw, tight staple, damaged insulation.
3 Short Delay. Short delay is an electronic backup to the short circuit mechanism.
4 Overvoltage. The breaker will trip if it experiences voltage of 160V RMS or greater. The breaker can be reset and the “TEST” button can be pushed to verify the breaker is working properly.
5 Ground fault. Current has found an alternate path to ground.
6 Self Test Failure. The breaker continually tests the internal electronics and software to ensure the arc fault detection technology is working properly. If the self diagnostics fail, the breaker will trip.
 
Not sure if this is what the OP is saying, but it could be that the breakers in question test fine and don't trip when the Powerwalls are actually disconnected. But connecting the Powerwalls causes both the intermittent trip, and the repeatable failures described when "off grid".

In which case, are the breakers actually bad, or is it just some sort of weird incompatibility with the Powerwalls?

Cheers, Wayne
 
Thursday said:
Hi All,

Posting this as a question, not a statement because it hasn't been proven yet.
Ive installed a Powerwall 3 with the BUS, per the Tesla Manual ( I am in fact a Tesla Certified Installer, have installed dozen's of these units in the past couple years)

The system is commissioned, working fine per the Tesla Installer App (Tesla One).

The problem arises in two different ways, both related to nuisance trips of Eaton AFCI and dual purpose AFCi/GFI 20 A 1P breakers.

Tesla Tech support so far has denied any issue with there system, once again, it looks fine on monitoring. But clearly something is up. Im not an expert on power quality. Maybe someone here is ??
Click to expand...
Hello Thursday,
As a certified installer do you install the ferrite cores on the supply conductors when installing?

There are several posts in other forums related to Powerwall installs causing lights to flicker and degrading PLC (power line carrier) home automation performance.
I believe that it is understood that the Powerwalls produce a large amount of electrical emissions (EMI) that can affect sensitive electronics.
The ferrite cores do a minimal amount of EMI attenuation. To reduce the emissions further, a large and expensive EMI filter would be required.
 
wwhitney said:
...
In which case, are the breakers actually bad, or is it just some sort of weird incompatibility with the Powerwalls?
Click to expand...

Possibly only an issue in combination with some characteristic of the site or load.

I've had AFCIs trip once or twice after installing a different battery system, but the issue wasn't ongoing or reproducible.
 
Thursday said:
...

Tesla Tech support so far has denied any issue with there system, once again, it looks fine on monitoring. But clearly something is up. Im not an expert on power quality. Maybe someone here is ??
Click to expand...

I feel like you haven't pushed on Tesla hard enough. There are probably adjustments they could make, if you got the right people on it, although diagnosing a fix may or may not be feasible.

But you may need to marshall your evidence first. Like, replace the AFCIs with known good ones and document to see if the problem reoccurs.
 
Thursday said:
.....
2nd) if the system is forced to do a backup test, using either the main breaker or via the installer app, the same breakers trip instantly, and then... this is where it gets interesting, will not hold in the closed position after being reset. They trip again instantly when in off grid mode.
Click to expand...

A suggestion is to temporarily disconnect the branch circuit conductors from the load terminals of the breakers that are tripping, and do a backup test. Then if the breakers still trip, Tesla cannot make a valid argument that the loads or bad wiring are responsible for the tripping that's occurring. And even if the tripping stops when the branch circuits are disconnected, it could still provide an additional piece of useful information in getting to a solution.
 
You might try a Siemens AFCI and then if that trips you can ask them to send you their diagnostic AFCI breaker. I have not contacted them in a years about the diagnostic breaker but its very handy.
They a have a fancy new version, if its like the old version I think they *might* rent it out, contact the email in the link.
 
How old are the Eaton breakers? Most brands have had issues with inverter based systems causing nuisance tripping and the manufacturers have had to update them, in some cases several times. I have had success just changing them out to the latest versions, and in a couple of cases, Eaton (and Square D) have sent them to me free when I complained.
 
Thursday said:
Hi All,

Posting this as a question, not a statement because it hasn't been proven yet.
Ive installed a Powerwall 3 with the BUS, per the Tesla Manual ( I am in fact a Tesla Certified Installer, have installed dozen's of these units in the past couple years)

The system is commissioned, working fine per the Tesla Installer App (Tesla One).

The problem arises in two different ways, both related to nuisance trips of Eaton AFCI and dual purpose AFCi/GFI 20 A 1P breakers.

1st) if the system is left on for any length of time ( say more than one day), a random number of breakers in the panel board will trip ( resetting them works temporarily, then they flash the 6 light self test error code and eventually trip again)

2nd) if the system is forced to do a backup test, using either the main breaker or via the installer app, the same breakers trip instantly, and then... this is where it gets interesting, will not hold in the closed position after being reset. They trip again instantly when in off grid mode.

Tesla Tech support so far has denied any issue with there system, once again, it looks fine on monitoring. But clearly something is up. Im not an expert on power quality. Maybe someone here is ??
Click to expand...
Hello, we are having the exact same issue after installing PW3 and BUS at 12 new homes. Has anyone found a solution to this or been able to get an answer from Eaton or Tesla. We are close to having to fly in a power quality specialist $$$$.
 
1sunforall said:
Hi ramsy, the link you have provided sent me to the gen3 car charger. I do know that Tesla acknowledges the BR 60 amp breaker needing to be replaced but I haven’t seen anything specific to Eaton arc fault breakers. Do you have a link to a white paper or other?
Click to expand...
Ramsy, is just someone that read's things online and comes to his own conclusions. He has never installed any electrical equipment.

Tesla and Enphase both use Eaton BR bussing for their equipment. Both also recommend Eaton BR breakers for installation in their equipment.

His comment in this thread has noting to do with the discussion.
 
1sunforall said:
Hi ramsy, the link you have provided sent me to the gen3 car charger. I do know that Tesla acknowledges the BR 60 amp breaker needing to be replaced but I haven’t seen anything specific to Eaton arc fault breakers. Do you have a link to a white paper or other?
Click to expand...
Tesla’s warning on page 7 is all I got.

WARNING: Do not use Eaton BR branch breakers for Universal Wall Connector when the Electrical Panelboard is made of Aluminum.

Does that answer your question?

If there’s more, no one is sharing, or offering further disclosure.
 
curt swartz said:
Ramsy, is just someone that read's things online and comes to his own conclusions. He has never installed any electrical equipment.

Tesla and Enphase both use Eaton BR bussing for their equipment. Both also recommend Eaton BR breakers for installation in their equipment.

His comment in this thread has noting to do with the discussion.
Click to expand...
Anyone who relishes rubbing peoples nose in their own mistakes like I do, by citing some authority, or citing themselves in prior diatribes, perhaps deserves comeuppance.

But Tesla’s Warning seems to leave no alternative, but to remove Eaton BR panelboards

Charlies Rule often applies to derangement syndromes, which refuse a paradigm shift to break bad habits.

But when someone insists on disbelief, alternative facts, or perspectives, it is their given right, albeit wont fix red tags, or get xFCI junk to work again.
 
ramsy said:
Tesla’s warning on page 7 is all I got.

WARNING: Do not use Eaton BR branch breakers for Universal Wall Connector when the Electrical Panelboard is made of Aluminum.

Does that answer your question?

If there’s more, no one is sharing, or offering further disclosure.
Click to expand...
Read all of the words.
WARNING: Do not use Eaton BR branch breakers for Universal Wall Connector when the Electrical Panelboard
is made of Aluminum. Recommend instead using Eaton BRH branch breakers.

It does not say do not use BR equipment. It says use BRH breakers over standard BR.

As I said previously Tesla uses BR in their own equipment.

And, again this thread is NOT about a Tesla wall connector.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top