I had a question on a test and i was hoping someone could help them. The first question was which one of these shall be gfi protected bathroom,laundry room, kitchen or outside i choose bathroom but i am not shore. The second question i was on a heater which is not aproved disconnecting means a double line breaker thermostat with positive off maker, panel cover with a lockable cover, if it is within sight of panel with no disconnect or disconnect witch is able to be locked in open position. Thanks for you help
Test Question
- Thread starter shelton
- Start date
- Status
jtester
Senior Member
- Location
- Las Cruces N.M.
For your answer to the first question, look at 210.8. For the second question, try 422 PART III. After you've researched those areas, let us know what you found.
Jim T
Jim T
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
That's why we should always specify which code issue we're referring.
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
As whole rooms, I'd say 'none'; for receptacles, there's more than one possibility. Are you sure it doesn't ask which one does NOT require GFCI protection?shelton said:
Again, there's more than one possibility. Are these trick questions? It seems an inspector should know these; I do without having to look them up.
Cavie
Senior Member
- Location
- SW Florida
The question cannot be answered as you have presented it. If this was on a test, I would cry foul.
Sheldon, If you look into article (2005) 210.8, you'll find the answer.You'll see the areas that need gfi protection.Bathrooms,Outdoors,Kitchens,Laundry.etc.
Also if you look into article 424.19 (A)(B)(C),you'll find the answer to your second question.
III. Control and Protection of Fixed Electric Space-Heating Equipment
424.19 Disconnecting Means
Means shall be provided to disconnect the heater, motor controller(s), and supplementary overcurrent protective device(s) of all fixed electric space-heating equipment from all ungrounded conductors. Where heating equipment is supplied by more than one source, the disconnecting means shall be grouped and marked.
Section 424.19(C) permits a unit switch to serve as the disconnecting means, provided that it has a marked ``off'' position and disconnects all ungrounded conductors and that other means are also provided in accordance with paragraphs 424.19(C)(1) through 424.19(C)(4). Such other means are not required to be capable of being locked in the open position as required by 424.19(B)(1).
See 424.20 for thermostatically controlled switching devices.
(A) Heating Equipment with Supplementary Overcurrent Protection The disconnecting means for fixed electric space-heating equipment with supplementary overcurrent protection shall be within sight from the supplementary overcurrent protective device(s), on the supply side of these devices, if fuses, and, in addition, shall comply with either 424.19(A)(1) or (A)(2).
(1) Heater Containing No Motor Rated Over 1/ 8 Horsepower The above disconnecting means or unit switches complying with 424.19(C) shall be permitted to serve as the required disconnecting means for both the motor controller(s) and heater under either of the following conditions:
(1) The disconnecting means provided is also within sight from the motor controller(s) and the heater.
(2) The disconnecting means provided is capable of being locked in the open position.
(2) Heater Containing a Motor(s) Rated Over 1/ 8 Horsepower The above disconnecting means shall be permitted to serve as the required disconnecting means for both the motor controller(s) and heater by one of the following means:
(1) Where the disconnecting means is also in sight from the motor controller(s) and the heater.
(2) Where the disconnecting means is not within sight from the heater, a separate disconnecting means shall be installed, or the disconnecting means shall be capable of being locked in the open position, or unit switches complying with 424.19(C) shall be permitted.
(3) Where the disconnecting means is not within sight from the motor controller location, a disconnecting means complying with 430.102 shall be provided.
(4) Where the motor is not in sight from the motor controller location, 430.102(B) shall apply.
(B) Heating Equipment Without Supplementary Overcurrent Protection
(1) Without Motor or with Motor Not Over 1/ 8 Horsepower For fixed electric space-heating equipment without a motor rated over 1/ 8 hp, the branch-circuit switch or circuit breaker shall be permitted to serve as the disconnecting means where the switch or circuit breaker is within sight from the heater or is capable of being locked in the open position.
(2) Over 1/ 8 Horsepower For motor-driven electric space-heating equipment with a motor rated over 1/ 8 hp, a disconnecting means shall be located within sight from the motor controller or shall be permitted to comply with the requirements in 424.19(A)(2).
(C) Unit Switch(es) as Disconnecting Means A unit switch(es) with a marked ``off'' position that is part of a fixed heater and disconnects all ungrounded conductors shall be permitted as the disconnecting means required by this article where other means for disconnection are provided in the types of occupancies in 424.19(C)(1) through (C)(4).
(1) Multifamily Dwellings In multifamily dwellings, the other disconnecting means shall be within the dwelling unit, or on the same floor as the dwelling unit in which the fixed heater is installed, and shall also be permitted to control lamps and appliances.
(2) Two-Family Dwellings In two-family dwellings, the other disconnecting means shall be permitted either inside or outside of the dwelling unit in which the fixed heater is installed. In this case, an individual switch or circuit breaker for the dwelling unit shall be permitted and shall also be permitted to control lamps and appliances.
(3) One-Family Dwellings In one-family dwellings, the service disconnecting means shall be permitted to be the other disconnecting means.
(4) Other Occupancies In other occupancies, the branch-circuit switch or circuit breaker, where readily accessible for servicing of the fixed heater, shall be permitted as the other disconnecting means.
424.20 Thermostatically Controlled Switching Devices
(A) Serving as Both Controllers and Disconnecting Means Thermostatically controlled switching devices and combination thermostats and manually controlled switches shall be permitted to serve as both controllers and disconnecting means, provided all of the following conditions are met:
(1) Provided with a marked ``off'' position
(2) Directly open all ungrounded conductors when manually placed in the ``off'' position
(3) Designed so that the circuit cannot be energized automatically after the device has been manually placed in the ``off'' position
(4) Located as specified in 424.19
(B) Thermostats That Do Not Directly Interrupt All Ungrounded Conductors Thermostats that do not directly interrupt all ungrounded conductors and thermostats that operate remote-control circuits shall not be required to meet the requirements of 424.20(A). These devices shall not be permitted as the disconnecting means.
Rick
Also if you look into article 424.19 (A)(B)(C),you'll find the answer to your second question.
III. Control and Protection of Fixed Electric Space-Heating Equipment
424.19 Disconnecting Means
Means shall be provided to disconnect the heater, motor controller(s), and supplementary overcurrent protective device(s) of all fixed electric space-heating equipment from all ungrounded conductors. Where heating equipment is supplied by more than one source, the disconnecting means shall be grouped and marked.
Section 424.19(C) permits a unit switch to serve as the disconnecting means, provided that it has a marked ``off'' position and disconnects all ungrounded conductors and that other means are also provided in accordance with paragraphs 424.19(C)(1) through 424.19(C)(4). Such other means are not required to be capable of being locked in the open position as required by 424.19(B)(1).
See 424.20 for thermostatically controlled switching devices.
(A) Heating Equipment with Supplementary Overcurrent Protection The disconnecting means for fixed electric space-heating equipment with supplementary overcurrent protection shall be within sight from the supplementary overcurrent protective device(s), on the supply side of these devices, if fuses, and, in addition, shall comply with either 424.19(A)(1) or (A)(2).
(1) Heater Containing No Motor Rated Over 1/ 8 Horsepower The above disconnecting means or unit switches complying with 424.19(C) shall be permitted to serve as the required disconnecting means for both the motor controller(s) and heater under either of the following conditions:
(1) The disconnecting means provided is also within sight from the motor controller(s) and the heater.
(2) The disconnecting means provided is capable of being locked in the open position.
(2) Heater Containing a Motor(s) Rated Over 1/ 8 Horsepower The above disconnecting means shall be permitted to serve as the required disconnecting means for both the motor controller(s) and heater by one of the following means:
(1) Where the disconnecting means is also in sight from the motor controller(s) and the heater.
(2) Where the disconnecting means is not within sight from the heater, a separate disconnecting means shall be installed, or the disconnecting means shall be capable of being locked in the open position, or unit switches complying with 424.19(C) shall be permitted.
(3) Where the disconnecting means is not within sight from the motor controller location, a disconnecting means complying with 430.102 shall be provided.
(4) Where the motor is not in sight from the motor controller location, 430.102(B) shall apply.
(B) Heating Equipment Without Supplementary Overcurrent Protection
(1) Without Motor or with Motor Not Over 1/ 8 Horsepower For fixed electric space-heating equipment without a motor rated over 1/ 8 hp, the branch-circuit switch or circuit breaker shall be permitted to serve as the disconnecting means where the switch or circuit breaker is within sight from the heater or is capable of being locked in the open position.
(2) Over 1/ 8 Horsepower For motor-driven electric space-heating equipment with a motor rated over 1/ 8 hp, a disconnecting means shall be located within sight from the motor controller or shall be permitted to comply with the requirements in 424.19(A)(2).
(C) Unit Switch(es) as Disconnecting Means A unit switch(es) with a marked ``off'' position that is part of a fixed heater and disconnects all ungrounded conductors shall be permitted as the disconnecting means required by this article where other means for disconnection are provided in the types of occupancies in 424.19(C)(1) through (C)(4).
(1) Multifamily Dwellings In multifamily dwellings, the other disconnecting means shall be within the dwelling unit, or on the same floor as the dwelling unit in which the fixed heater is installed, and shall also be permitted to control lamps and appliances.
(2) Two-Family Dwellings In two-family dwellings, the other disconnecting means shall be permitted either inside or outside of the dwelling unit in which the fixed heater is installed. In this case, an individual switch or circuit breaker for the dwelling unit shall be permitted and shall also be permitted to control lamps and appliances.
(3) One-Family Dwellings In one-family dwellings, the service disconnecting means shall be permitted to be the other disconnecting means.
(4) Other Occupancies In other occupancies, the branch-circuit switch or circuit breaker, where readily accessible for servicing of the fixed heater, shall be permitted as the other disconnecting means.
424.20 Thermostatically Controlled Switching Devices
(A) Serving as Both Controllers and Disconnecting Means Thermostatically controlled switching devices and combination thermostats and manually controlled switches shall be permitted to serve as both controllers and disconnecting means, provided all of the following conditions are met:
(1) Provided with a marked ``off'' position
(2) Directly open all ungrounded conductors when manually placed in the ``off'' position
(3) Designed so that the circuit cannot be energized automatically after the device has been manually placed in the ``off'' position
(4) Located as specified in 424.19
(B) Thermostats That Do Not Directly Interrupt All Ungrounded Conductors Thermostats that do not directly interrupt all ungrounded conductors and thermostats that operate remote-control circuits shall not be required to meet the requirements of 424.20(A). These devices shall not be permitted as the disconnecting means.
Rick
jtester
Senior Member
- Location
- Las Cruces N.M.
Larry can you explain why none of those receptacles need to be GFCI protected? I would have said every one does. Using the 2002 or 2005 NEC every one of those locations is listed as requiring GFCI although some do have qualifications or exceptions.
Jim T
Jim T
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician (retired)
The questions are poorly worded and cannot be answered with the information provided.
Bathroom-GFCI required for all receptacles
Laundry Room-required for receptacles if within 6' of a sink
Kitchen-required for receptacles if serving a counter top
Outside-GFCI required for receptacles not serving electric snow-melt or deicing equipment
None of this applies if the receptacle is more than 125 volts, or larger than 15 or 20 amps.
Given the above information I don't see how you could accurately answer the question.
Bathroom-GFCI required for all receptacles
Laundry Room-required for receptacles if within 6' of a sink
Kitchen-required for receptacles if serving a counter top
Outside-GFCI required for receptacles not serving electric snow-melt or deicing equipment
None of this applies if the receptacle is more than 125 volts, or larger than 15 or 20 amps.
Given the above information I don't see how you could accurately answer the question.
77401
Banned
it can be tough, when taking a test & then tryin to remember the verbatim wording after you get home & after a few beers
Next time sneak some scap paper in, write down exactly the Q & Answers. It can make more sense after a few beers.
Next time sneak some scap paper in, write down exactly the Q & Answers. It can make more sense after a few beers.
jtester
Senior Member
- Location
- Las Cruces N.M.
infinity said:
I agree the question is poorly worded, but you are faced with providing an the best answer you can. If you get all wrapped up in the lack of clarity, you will surely miss the question.
Jim T
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
"It is like a finger pointing away to the moon. Do not concentrate on the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory. " ~ Bruce Lee in Enter the Dragonjtester said:
Jim W in Tampa
Senior Member
- Location
- Tampa Florida
From what you did not say.You did not say residential or commercial.If commercial bathroom no gfi required unless you have a receptacle and thats an option.Laundry does not need any unless its within 6 feet of tub or even has one other than for washer.Kitchen may or maynot depending on if there is any near the sink (think office).Outside is only one that i can not get out of easy.2 nd question i would say the panel covershelton said:
- Status